On Rep. Joe Wilson
Much has been made about US Rep. Joe Wilson’s (R-SC) outburst during Obama’s speech promoting his health care proposals. Republicans and Democrats alike have denounced Wilson’s show of disrespect for the President, and Wilson himself has apologized. It doesn’t matter how misleading or even outright false a claim made by the President may be, for a member of Congress to heckle him during a speech on Capitol Hill is simply wrong.
Unfortunately, disrespect to the President from members of Congress has become all too common in the last several decades. Wilson’s outburst, in fact, was only shocking because his timing was off. If you listen closely, you can hear that he shouted “You lie!” twice. After the first time Obama said “The reforms…” and there was still a general murmuring among Republicans, Wilson (or someone else) shouted something that sounded a lot like “You lie!” My guess is Wilson expected another round of jeering after Obama finished his statement, but instead there was silence and his shout rang out through the chamber.
And, of course, this disrespect is nothing new. Democrats jeered at President Bush on several occasions when he was addressing controversial topics during speeches to Congress. Here’s one example from his 2005 State of the Union address. Dissing the President is just part of the partisan rancor which has afflicted Washington for most of the last quarter century or more. Wilson’s outburst has only gained attention because his voice was lone and distinct, rather than part of a chorus of boos.
Incidentally, Wilson has a valid complaint about the potential for illegal aliens to benefit from the proposed health care reform. HR3200, while it states that illegals will not receive “affordability credits”, does not contain any mechanism for enforcing this. According to the Center for Immigration Studies, an amendment which proposed to use the Systematic Alien Verification for Entitlements program, “used by almost all other means-tested programs of this kind,” was defeated in committee. And according to a report by the Congressional Research Service, there is no restriction in the bill on non-citizens participating in the Health Insurance Exchange, including the taxpayer-subsidized public option.
23 Responses to “On Rep. Joe Wilson”
Why is this disrespectful? When the Federal Executive speaks to the Federal Legislature, he should expect his co-equals to hold him to account.
This is only disrespectful if you buy into the Cult of the President and place him as the almighty leader.
Parliamentary Democracies seem to function at least as well as the unique federal form of government while having these forms of feedback from MPs. (ex. PM’s Question Time)
While I’m aware of the PM’s Question Time, I’m unfamiliar with the customs and expectations of decorum assciated with it. When the President addresses a joint session of Congress, however, it is considered rude to interrupt him. (The same holds true, by the way, of ordinary sessions of Congress. The rules of order prohibit anyone from interrupting the person who has the floor–although breaches of that level of decorum are not considered as serious, partly due to the fact that each congressperson is only one of 535 members of the legislative branch, and partly because their sessions are routine, whereas a Presidential address is a special event.)
You lie! Whoops, sorry Eric, I let my emotions get the best of me. Here’s
Politifact.com on the Congressional outburst: “Joe Wilson of South Carolina said Obama lied, but he didn’t…”
We read all 1,000-plus pages of the health care bill and were struck by the fact that it is largely silent on health care for illegal immigrants. Keep in mind that experts estimated there were 6.8 million uninsured illegal immigrants in the United States in 2007, out of a total of 11.9 million illegal immigrants. Right now, most states have laws on the books that require hospitals to treat severely ill people who arrive at the hospital, regardless of immigration status, and we didn’t see anything that would change those laws, either. Most illegal immigrants are also now excluded from Medicaid, the government-run health care for the poor. We didn’t see anything that would change that.
Read the CIS and CRS reports, Jerry. I wouldn’t go so far as Wilson did and claim that Obama was lying. But the bill in its current form not only fails to provide a mechanism for verifying citizenship for determining eligibility for “affordability credits,” it also leaves open the possibility that illegal immigrants will be able to participate in the Health Insurance Exchange, including the taxpayer-subsidized public option.
Eric,
H.R. 3200: Sec 246 — NO FEDERAL PAYMENT FOR UNDOCUMENTED ALIENS
Nothing in this subtitle shall allow Federal payments for affordability credits on behalf of individuals who are not lawfully present in the United States.
And I just read the CRS report, Eric.
…only aliens who could be classified as resident aliens would be required under the bill to have health insurance. In 2013, under H.R. 3200, some individuals would be eligible for premium credits (i.e., subsidies based on income) toward their required purchase of health insurance. To be eligible for the premium credits under H.R. 3200, individuals must be lawfully present in a state in the United States (i.e., those in the United States for a specific purpose and a specific period of time). The exceptions for nonimmigrants who could obtain premium credits under H.R. 3200 would be trafficking victims, crime victims, fiancées of U.S. citizens, and those who have had applications for legal permanent residence (LPR) status pending for three years. It is expected that almost all aliens in these excepted nonimmigrant categories will become LPRs (i.e., immigrants) and remain in the United States permanently. Furthermore, unauthorized aliens would be barred from receiving the premium credit.
As for a mechanism to verifying citizenship for determining eligibility for “affordability credits,” I’m embarrassed to say that it looks like all the usual Dem “centrists” in the Senate are, as usual, busy capitulating to right-wing demands. So not to worry.
Jerry, did you miss the section of the CRS report which says the following:
“H.R. 3200 does not contain any restrictions on noncitzens participating in the Exchange–whether the noncitizens are legally or illegally present, or in the United States temporarily or permanently.”
Personally, I’m glad the Dems are addressing the valid concerns over citizenship verification. All similar entitlement programs use it. Why are you opposed to verifying citizenship before we dole out taxpayer money?
You’re confused, Eric. Participating in the Exchange is not the same (at all!!!) as getting subsidized. The Exchange is the marketplace where all the various health plans open to individuals and small businesses will live. Are you really suggesting that undocumented people living/working in the US should not even be allowed access to unsubsidized private insurance plans? I’ll bet insurers on the Exchange would not like that idea! Not to mention taxpayers and all those folks who pay for their insurance. As Politifact notes, “most states have laws on the books that require hospitals to treat severely ill people who arrive at the hospital, regardless of immigration status.” So that’s where uninsured undocumented immigrants will show up for treatment, just like they do now. And just like we do now, taxpayers and/or purchasers of insurance will ultimately wind up footing the bill.
Jerry,
The Health Insurance Exchange does not include only private insurance plans; it would also include the public option plan, which would almost certainly be government-subsidized. I believe I was very clear about this, and your other questions in this thread, in the original post.
Of course, it is not certain that we’ll end up with a public option at all, as Obama has equivocated on that (much to the dismay of hard-liners on the left). But based on what is in the bill right now, Wilson has a valid point.
And to all at ITA. I don’t know if other Mac users have reported the same problem, but since you upgraded your site, I’ve only been able to access your site intermittently. My current version is 10.5.8.
Here’s the problem: I often get this message when trying to access your site: “Safari can ‘t find the server” or “Firefox can ‘t find the server.” It only happens with your site.
The mention of Prime Minister’s Questions highlights the tension in the Office of President between being Head of State and being Head of Government (and defacto head of party). The Canadian or British Prime Minister is a member of the legislature and as the Head of Government has to answer for his/her government’s policies directly to the leader of the opposition. The Governor-General/Queen can remain mostly above the battle and serve as the important symbolic role.
In our system the opposition has no direct forum to confront the government. I think it is all too easy for a person holding the office of President to wrap his/her self in the Head of Government role when acting in a purely political manner and we lose something in the process. If Presidential speeches on political subjects are to be accorded “Speech from the Throne” status I’d like to see them followed by a member of his/her party designated as the spokesman for the proposed program facing off in the well against a designated opposition expert on the subject.
Good point. I was thinking the same about Obama’s speech to school kids. There should have been a speech from the opposition party to follow it.
Ours is an adversarial system of government and rightly so. But how are kids going to learn that if they see undue respect being paid to whichever politician happens to be on top at the moment? How are kids going to learn the “two sides to every question” principle if only one side gets to make a presentation like that?
Seriously? Do we really need Eric Cantor to follow the president and tell school kids to not drink their milk and not do their homework in the interest of “equal time?”
see below
I think it may be penny wise and pound foolish to prohibit illegal aliens from buying even private insurance, as I understand Obama to now be doing in order to claim 100% that federal dollars won’t be used for non-emergency medical care for illegals. In a system where all citizens would be covered to some extent one way or another, and resident aliens allowed to buy insurance, what would be the cost to an illegal alien for a $15 thyroid test that “my” lab charges $110 for but then discounts, per agreement/negotiation with my plan administrator to that $15 range? Northing will change the fact that there are millions of undocumented residents, the majority perhaps without basic care such that they rely on ER’s. Practicing defensive medicine, ER’s seem to rarely refuse to treat anyone who shows up at their doorstep. Prohibiting illegals from buying even very basic plans could mean that the ER becomes even more crucial to their overall health. I’m old enough to remember the days when doctors accepted installment payments from patients. The high cost of tests and procedures, along with insurance developments, has pretty much made that a thing of the past. We can wish illegals away, we can stand on “principle” but it can already cost $2,700 to treat an uncomplicated infection via the ER route in large part because of unrecovered losses. We already have greatly (significantly?) inflated auto insurance premiums because most states require a valid driver’s license to get insurance, an ID that has become more difficult to counterfeit. So that’s another win that’s a loss, perhaps. At some point we have to decide what we want, bottom line. We want 2500 square foot homes, four bedrooms, 2-1/2 bath and a family room at an affordable cost with no illegal labor involved. We want to be able to buy 16 plump drumsticks at Wal-mart for $8.00, but we also are appalled that raids of poultry processing plants turn up the undocumented. How dare they come here to take our jobs. For health care, can the President, Congress and the voting public for starters decide what the American public wants? Not easily, because to a great degree, we want things that don’t go together.
I like Obama. I voted for him with an enthusiasm I haven’t had in many years of presidential voting. However, I’d have more confidence in him if as part of an address to Congress he would, on behalf of Democrats everywhere, admit that there is no such thing as the Social Security Trust Fund. If we had that kind of candor from our president, maybe enough Congressional members from both parties would think boldly, and with mutual trust on health care. I don’t mean to imply, though, that there can’t be a principled stance against all forms of national health care/health care reform.
Yes, The Exchange would be the marketplace for all the various insurance plans offered to individuals and small businesses only (the big health insurance companies have seen to those restrictions). Yes, the Public Plan will live there and compete with private insurance companies. In the Exchange, both public and private insurers will offer plans where individuals and families would receive federal subsidies if they fall below a certain income level. However, undocumented immigrants would be allowed, as individuals, onto the Exchange only to shop for public and private insurance at full cost, WITHOUT subsidies. They would be barred from receiving subsidies. Period. A Public plan could not ask the government for subsidies, nor could private insurers if they choose to offer coverage to an undocumented immigrant. Not only that, but Dems have shamefully been considering a GOP proposal to establish a 5 year waiting period for LEGAL immigrants to access individual subsidies for purchasing health insurance on the Exchange.
Nothing you have said here, or documents that you have provided links to here, in any way validate your contention that Wilson has a valid point. Wilson didn’t have a point. He lied.
Oh I understand now, Eric. It wasn’t enough for xenophobes like Wilson that reform legislation prohibited llegal immigrants from getting federal subsidies, he insists on a proof of citizenship requirement to even get on the Exchange! Don’t worry though, you can count on Dems to cower when the rabid right screams. It’s looking like Obama is gonna bend over backwards to appease the extremists. I’m with Bill Maher on this one: Please, Mr President, “stand up for the 70% of Americans who aren’t crazy.” And I hope immigrants rights groups kick his sorry ass over this.
For a quick dose of reality, the NY Times notess: A House oversight committee reviewed six state Medicaid programs in 2007 and found that verification rules had cost the federal government an additional $8.3 million. They caught exactly eight illegal immigrants. That’s a lot of money to dole out for spite.
Good thinking, the Reticulator!
Which member of the opposition party do you think would have best challenged Obama’s message to school kids exhorting them to to work hard, stay in school, and say no to drugs?
That’s not a good question. A better question would be, “Which member of the opposition party do you think would have best challenged Obama’s message to school kids telling them that he is working hard to fix up their classrooms and getting them the books, equipment and computers they need to learn.
There are a lot of debatable assumptions in that message. It would be good for some of them to be debated.
Children ought to learn the difference of opinion is important and good. Difference of opinion does not mean you do not like the opponent. Children ought to learn to talk about difference of opinion.
The Reticulator brings up important issues to be discussed. However I don’t think the difference of opinion about if, when, how, and what children should be thought by the state in government school should be discounted because it can easily be parodied.
Jerry wrote:
However, undocumented immigrants would be allowed, as individuals, onto the Exchange only to shop for public and private insurance at full cost, WITHOUT subsidies… A Public plan could not ask the government for subsidies
Let’s be more precise about what we mean by “subsidies.” The bill that is before the House excludes illegal immigrants from receiving direct subsidies in the form of “affordability credits.” However, if the public insurance option is supported in any way–directly or indirectly–by tax dollars rather than premiums, then it is subsidized. If government-owned buildings are used to house the administrative offices for the plan, or the plan is exempt from any regulations which affect private insurance companies, or gets to borrow money from the government at reduced interest rates, those would be examples of indirect subsidies. To my knowledge, the federal government has never created any entity which was completely subsidy-free. If you can point me to a source which explains why the public option would be the exception, I would greatly appreciate it.
On a side note, it’s really confusing how the comments appear threaded when you click on an individual post, but appear in chronological order when you use the pop-up window.
If the public option is created using tax dollars, then I guess that according to you and Gregory Mankiw, that amounts to a “subsidy,” and undocumented immigrants would indirectly benefit if they are allowed to purchase insurance, at full cost, from the public plan. So be it. However, other sources under consideration are limits on certain tax deductions and a cap on tax-free employer-provided health care.
It’s all very silly.