Comments on: Keeping Quiet http://www.intheagora.com/archives/2008/05/keeping_quiet/?source=rss current events, culture, faith, science and more Sat, 20 Mar 2010 05:40:35 -0700 http://wordpress.org/?v=2.8.2 hourly 1 By: cl http://www.intheagora.com/archives/2008/05/keeping_quiet/comment-page-1/#comment-10289 cl Sat, 14 Jun 2008 02:11:48 +0000 http://intheagora.com/2008/05/keeping_quiet.html#comment-10289 Anonymous wrote, "There is no place for hard science in church and there is no place for metaphysics in public schools." I disagree, but not in defense of creationism or intelligent design being taught as science. The church ought to have more sermons on science so believers can learn, and schools should openly promote metaphysical inquiry when freely identified as such and conducted in a non-dogmatic manner. Anonymous wrote,
“There is no place for hard science in church and there is no place for metaphysics in public schools.”
I disagree, but not in defense of creationism or intelligent design being taught as science. The church ought to have more sermons on science so believers can learn, and schools should openly promote metaphysical inquiry when freely identified as such and conducted in a non-dogmatic manner.

]]> By: cl http://www.intheagora.com/archives/2008/05/keeping_quiet/comment-page-1/#comment-10288 cl Sat, 14 Jun 2008 02:09:22 +0000 http://intheagora.com/2008/05/keeping_quiet.html#comment-10288 Somebody wrote, "There is no place for hard science in church and there is no place for metaphysics in public schools." I disagree with this, but not in the context of supporting the teaching of creationism or intelligent design as science. Somebody wrote, “There is no place for hard science in church and there is no place for metaphysics in public schools.”
I disagree with this, but not in the context of supporting the teaching of creationism or intelligent design as science.

]]> By: cl http://www.intheagora.com/archives/2008/05/keeping_quiet/comment-page-1/#comment-10287 cl Sat, 14 Jun 2008 00:26:32 +0000 http://intheagora.com/2008/05/keeping_quiet.html#comment-10287 Hi I just caught this thread randomly and couldn't resist. I would feel like I was rocking the boat in church if I were to say that creationism and intelligent design are not science, or that Bush 43 and the Republican right are erroneous representations of faith, or that religious organizations should be taxed, or that most or all of the money spent on extrachurchicular activities would be better directed towards people living in the river bottom. Any one of those would probably raise an eyebrow, and I think they are all correct positions that do not violate scripture. Hi I just caught this thread randomly and couldn’t resist.
I would feel like I was rocking the boat in church if I were to say that creationism and intelligent design are not science, or that Bush 43 and the Republican right are erroneous representations of faith, or that religious organizations should be taxed, or that most or all of the money spent on extrachurchicular activities would be better directed towards people living in the river bottom. Any one of those would probably raise an eyebrow, and I think they are all correct positions that do not violate scripture.

]]> By: Claudia http://www.intheagora.com/archives/2008/05/keeping_quiet/comment-page-1/#comment-10286 Claudia Mon, 09 Jun 2008 02:13:41 +0000 http://intheagora.com/2008/05/keeping_quiet.html#comment-10286 What I'd like to say, is what's with this guy going down the aisle counting people with his finger and writing in a little notebook. I've gone to a few churches where that goes on and it is so creepy. They must never have read what happened when David was "incited by Satan" to number the people of God. I Chron. 21 What I’d like to say, is what’s with this guy going down the aisle counting people with his finger and writing in a little notebook. I’ve gone to a few churches where that goes on and it is so creepy. They must never have read what happened when David was “incited by Satan” to number the people of God. I Chron. 21

]]> By: The Reticulator http://www.intheagora.com/archives/2008/05/keeping_quiet/comment-page-1/#comment-10285 The Reticulator Sun, 08 Jun 2008 18:43:21 +0000 http://intheagora.com/2008/05/keeping_quiet.html#comment-10285 Alan points out that nobody here attends lefty mainline churches. I don't attend one, but I've been in enough churches where the sermon consists of an anti-American screed about our government lying to us, etc. etc.. I don't know what I wouldn't be allowed to say in those places because I'm just a guest. I keep my mouth shut and roll my eyes. The Field of Dreams comment is right on target. Alan points out that nobody here attends lefty mainline churches. I don’t attend one, but I’ve been in enough churches where the sermon consists of an anti-American screed about our government lying to us, etc. etc.. I don’t know what I wouldn’t be allowed to say in those places because I’m just a guest. I keep my mouth shut and roll my eyes.
The Field of Dreams comment is right on target.

]]> By: Alan K. Henderson http://www.intheagora.com/archives/2008/05/keeping_quiet/comment-page-1/#comment-10284 Alan K. Henderson Sun, 01 Jun 2008 05:53:59 +0000 http://intheagora.com/2008/05/keeping_quiet.html#comment-10284 I'm very late to this thread: <i>Anything that suggests anything sexual</i> Certainly one should not hold such conversations in the foyer after services where children of all ages are running around. Discussions on sexual issues tend to occur in Sunday school classes or cell group meetings. <i>Just because the new multi-million dollar building plan is a "God-sized challenge" (in the sense that we don't have the money for it) doesn't mean that it's a challenge God wants us to accept.</i> I've been to at least one church where this desperately needed to be said. "If you build it, he will come" is in "Field of Dreams," not the Bible. Nobody here attends lefty mainline churches, judging by the responses. I don't (since I'm not a lefty mainliner), so I'm not qualified to make that list. I can offer a rule of thumb regarding an extreme example such as Trinity United Church of Christ - anything you can't say without inviting a flame war in a Kos or Democratic Underground threas you can't say there. I’m very late to this thread:
Anything that suggests anything sexual
Certainly one should not hold such conversations in the foyer after services where children of all ages are running around. Discussions on sexual issues tend to occur in Sunday school classes or cell group meetings.
Just because the new multi-million dollar building plan is a “God-sized challenge” (in the sense that we don’t have the money for it) doesn’t mean that it’s a challenge God wants us to accept.
I’ve been to at least one church where this desperately needed to be said. “If you build it, he will come” is in “Field of Dreams,” not the Bible.
Nobody here attends lefty mainline churches, judging by the responses. I don’t (since I’m not a lefty mainliner), so I’m not qualified to make that list. I can offer a rule of thumb regarding an extreme example such as Trinity United Church of Christ – anything you can’t say without inviting a flame war in a Kos or Democratic Underground threas you can’t say there.

]]> By: Anonymous http://www.intheagora.com/archives/2008/05/keeping_quiet/comment-page-1/#comment-10283 Anonymous Wed, 28 May 2008 18:58:05 +0000 http://intheagora.com/2008/05/keeping_quiet.html#comment-10283 I am an athiest who is married to former clergy (18 years in a major denomination pulpit) who switched to teaching a few years ago (got tired of the pulpit) so there isn't much that I won't say to a Christian. But, there are a few things: 1) Why does the atheist know more about the Bible than you? (more often than not, real over-the-top saved thumpers that I've encountered can't seem to remember the context of the one-liners they spew out.) 2) If you don't like it when people throw their lifestyles in your face, then why are you throwing your Christianity in my face? (usually when I see Christians protesting unpeacefully - i.e. protesting and confronting passerbys that aren't involved.) 3) Would you *please* THINK about what prayer in school means? Either a mandated prayer time would be the emotional equivalent of saying the pledge of allegiance, or would be the emotionally neutral experience of study hall; I have yet to see children barely able to contain themselves from spontaneously bursting out in prayer in the middle of social studies, so they probably won't greet the time with the same enthusiasm as their parents. Not to mention.. what makes you think that it'll be YOUR prayer that gets used? Or even better.. what if the prayer used is constructed by committee to please a Christian, a Jew, a Muslim, a Hindu and an Aleut? That'll be some unrecognizable and value meaningless prayer - not exactly what you're looking for. There is no place for hard science in church and there is no place for metaphysics in public schools. Okay.. so that last one I've been meaning to get off my chest for a while. Sorry :) I am an athiest who is married to former clergy (18 years in a major denomination pulpit) who switched to teaching a few years ago (got tired of the pulpit) so there isn’t much that I won’t say to a Christian. But, there are a few things:
1) Why does the atheist know more about the Bible than you? (more often than not, real over-the-top saved thumpers that I’ve encountered can’t seem to remember the context of the one-liners they spew out.)
2) If you don’t like it when people throw their lifestyles in your face, then why are you throwing your Christianity in my face? (usually when I see Christians protesting unpeacefully – i.e. protesting and confronting passerbys that aren’t involved.)
3) Would you *please* THINK about what prayer in school means? Either a mandated prayer time would be the emotional equivalent of saying the pledge of allegiance, or would be the emotionally neutral experience of study hall; I have yet to see children barely able to contain themselves from spontaneously bursting out in prayer in the middle of social studies, so they probably won’t greet the time with the same enthusiasm as their parents. Not to mention.. what makes you think that it’ll be YOUR prayer that gets used? Or even better.. what if the prayer used is constructed by committee to please a Christian, a Jew, a Muslim, a Hindu and an Aleut? That’ll be some unrecognizable and value meaningless prayer – not exactly what you’re looking for. There is no place for hard science in church and there is no place for metaphysics in public schools.
Okay.. so that last one I’ve been meaning to get off my chest for a while. Sorry :)

]]> By: 8:39 http://www.intheagora.com/archives/2008/05/keeping_quiet/comment-page-1/#comment-10282 8:39 Wed, 28 May 2008 13:23:46 +0000 http://intheagora.com/2008/05/keeping_quiet.html#comment-10282 MerryLate: I posted the 8:39 to which you responded, and your response really makes my point for me. In my Southern Baptist church, there aren't any people who are publicly gay, but there are a number of people who are going through divorces or in a straight but unmarried sexual relationship. We spend a lot more time talking about how wrong homosexuality is than we do talking about things that would convict our tithe-paying church members (Jesus' teaching on divorce, for example). I absolutely think homosexual acts are sin, and I don't for a second think we should gloss over that or sugar-coat it. But I do think that sin in the church angers God more than sin outside of it. If you want to argue with that, knock yourself out. MerryLate: I posted the 8:39 to which you responded, and your response really makes my point for me. In my Southern Baptist church, there aren’t any people who are publicly gay, but there are a number of people who are going through divorces or in a straight but unmarried sexual relationship. We spend a lot more time talking about how wrong homosexuality is than we do talking about things that would convict our tithe-paying church members (Jesus’ teaching on divorce, for example). I absolutely think homosexual acts are sin, and I don’t for a second think we should gloss over that or sugar-coat it. But I do think that sin in the church angers God more than sin outside of it. If you want to argue with that, knock yourself out.

]]> By: DMD http://www.intheagora.com/archives/2008/05/keeping_quiet/comment-page-1/#comment-10281 DMD Wed, 28 May 2008 03:12:15 +0000 http://intheagora.com/2008/05/keeping_quiet.html#comment-10281 This thread has really caught on. See also <a href="http://markbyron.typepad.com/main/2008/05/taboo-boos.html" rel="nofollow">Mark Byron</a> and the <a href="http://www.internetmonk.com/archive/riffs-on-what-you-cant-say-around-christians" rel="nofollow">Internet Monk</a>. This thread has really caught on. See also Mark Byron and the Internet Monk.

]]> By: MerryLate http://www.intheagora.com/archives/2008/05/keeping_quiet/comment-page-1/#comment-10280 MerryLate Wed, 28 May 2008 01:57:49 +0000 http://intheagora.com/2008/05/keeping_quiet.html#comment-10280 "3. God is likely a lot more angry about the rampant divorce and adultery in His church than He is about gay marriage between unbelievers." <p> Sorry, but you've missed the boat on this one. The fact that a lot of people are committing (and often glossing over) one sin does not mean that God is less concerned about another. God calls us to holiness - to repent of adultery, divorce *and* homosexual sin, along with whatever personal pet sins we hide as well. You can't just blow off your favorite sin as being somehow less offensive to God than the rampant sin you see in others. <p> The issue with gay marriage is that essentially we're being called to overlook what God calls unholy. God is clear in His word that homosexual behavior is abominable. People in the church who promote gay marriage have to twist the Bible to make it say otherwise, and it is no accident that such groups also wind up calling other essential truths into question, such as the sufficiency of Christ to save the lost. We do need to stand up for what the Bible says, even if it isn't popular or palatable to the unbeliever.</p></p> “3. God is likely a lot more angry about the rampant divorce and adultery in His church than He is about gay marriage between unbelievers.”

Sorry, but you’ve missed the boat on this one. The fact that a lot of people are committing (and often glossing over) one sin does not mean that God is less concerned about another. God calls us to holiness – to repent of adultery, divorce *and* homosexual sin, along with whatever personal pet sins we hide as well. You can’t just blow off your favorite sin as being somehow less offensive to God than the rampant sin you see in others.

The issue with gay marriage is that essentially we’re being called to overlook what God calls unholy. God is clear in His word that homosexual behavior is abominable. People in the church who promote gay marriage have to twist the Bible to make it say otherwise, and it is no accident that such groups also wind up calling other essential truths into question, such as the sufficiency of Christ to save the lost. We do need to stand up for what the Bible says, even if it isn’t popular or palatable to the unbeliever.

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