Keeping Quiet
Posted by Joshua Claybourn on 20 May 2008 | 28 responses
I saw this done at a weblog called FlowerDust.net and enjoyed the result so much I wanted to try it here.
What is something you feel you can’t say in church, or around other Christians?
Anonymous responses are welcomed and encouraged.
28 Responses to “Keeping Quiet”
I don’t feel like there is much I cannot say around other people. But there are thing I at least thing thrice about.
1) “Is it just me or do these sermons suck?” My Sunday School group has a Google Group and email list. After a post on ITA a while back I pretty much asked a question that could have been interpreted that way.
2) “What the heck are we singing?” As a Methodist, I get a lot of great Chuck Wesley mixed in with other classic. But we have this mostly awful supplement called “The Faith We Sing.” I think there are maybe 5 ‘hymns’ in it that have ever moved my faith.
I do not doubt that there are some who are greatly moved by a gospel choir, praise band, or singing in zulu. I can take that in measure.
I would much rather sing something that teaches me something about the faith. Give me “Cherubim and seraphim falling down before Thee, Which wert and art, and evermore shalt be.” any day.
2.5) “The music director’s and organist’s copies of the hymnals also have tempo markings, right?” This one is not asked as much after I learned that our organ needs $3M in repairs and we are blessed each Sunday it does not blow up. But still, that might be a worth sacrifice to the Lord.
3) “Don’t you people think?” For me Christianity is and appears to have always been a very logical and well thought out religion. We have had our times when we forced others to convert. However, our roots are in “the people of the book” and Mars Hill.
For me thought requires you to accept that you don’t know. Perhaps it makes me wishy-washy, but I am willing to say there is a very limited set of things that I know for sure, and a very large set of things I don’t know for sure.
I have a feeling that X, Y, and Z are probably not what God wants. However, I surrender myself to Christ and want others to do the same. I assume after we have all done that, the status X, Y , and Z will become clear.
This does not mean I don’t like to talk about X, Y, and Z, because that sounds like a lot of fun. I just don’t think it is something we are going to come to conclusions on. Ever since we learned there was The One God we have been wanting him to just come down here and tell us how it is.
Can not say in church:
1. Curse words
2. “left” political views
3. questions.
4. gossip.
5. provactive ideas and suggestions
Can not say to other Christians:
1. Anything about my pre-marital sex life.
2. Anything that suggests anything sexual.
3. Anything concerning “left” political views
4. Outside philosophical possibilities.
5. that you’ve been to other denominations’ services.
I can’t say in my church:
1. I don’t believe a building program automatically means more members, despite what church leadership says.
I can’t say to other Christians in general:
1. I find some aspects of Reformed Christianity truly monstrous, such as God predestining people to hell for purposes of “Sovereign Glory.”
2. I believe saying “s/he was never saved to begin with” when someone leaves the church is a total cop out.
3. I can no longer believe in “complementarian” gender theory. It’s too close to “separate but equal” for my tastes. And the courtship movement is creepy.
4. I believe John Piper has too much intellectual influence on people my age, and needs a thorough theological critique.
This is an interesting question. My first thought is that there’s not really much that I feel I cannot say to other Christians. I realize that there are a lot of things that I wouldn’t say to anybody that doesn’t know me very well, church goers or not. My husband and I are youth pastors and so there are many struggles and topics and thing in my life that I would not share with my youth because it would be inappropriate and because on many levels they would not be in the least bit able to relate. But where my friends who are in church and who are in the same stage of life as I am, I pretty much feel free to share anything if it is done in the right context. For me there are many things that I would not say in church, and it’s not because I feel oppressed by my faith or something, like I can’t be the real me in church or whatever. It’s because I won’t bare my soul to just anyone.
great post never have heard this question expressed before.
new here love jesus teachings but not the sacrifice idea for sin.
thing I would like to say really two things.
if god knows all past present future why create man and then give free will for man to suffer when man screws up. simple logic but am sure christians have a nice long answer for this one.
why do american christians support such wars as vietnam and iraq and they never asked for forgivness for the one million vietnamese we killed during their civil war.
I see little of christ in most american christians. ie many if not most evangels support this war.
“if god knows all past present future why create man and then give free will for man to suffer when man screws up. simple logic but am sure christians have a nice long answer for this one.”
As a reformed Christian, it took me awhile to discover an intellectual and morally satisfying answer to this question and I honestly feel that it is the most direct answer, not just me bending over backwards to satisfy my intellect.
It is hard to explain, though, to someone not a Christian. Secular ethics understandably value human welfare above anything else and one has to see a larger picture than only this world.
I will say this, though: my story is that I first concluded that the Bible was infallible and true and then I came to an answer to this question many years later. Jonathan Edwards himself first found this question extremely troubling and then came to an answer by first relying on the truth of the Bible. It’s really putting the cart before the horse to expect an answer to this question before evaluating the truth of the Bible.
As for wars, I would say that there are other factors to consider. War is a bad thing but not the worst of all things. Saddam Hussein was a butcherous tyrant who wantonly killed multitudes of innocent civillians. Withdrawing from Vietnam also helped precipitate the Khmer Rouge.
I wasn’t around during Vietnam and, looking back, I wouldn’t support Iraq. And of course American committed atrocities in both wars. However, Americans also committed atrocities in World War II just every side has in every conflict in history. A sense of proportion to inaction is needed, which is how a Christian can support a war.
You guys will believe anything because a guy in a suit tells you it’s true. Look it up for yourself.
My Catholic parish is more like a protestant church than a Catholic one.
Sometimes I just want to scream, “We’re in a Fundamental Baptist Church, for Pete’s sake. Will all you Pentacostals with your hands up in the air go back to the Assembly of the emotional God Church you came from!” Thank you for letting me vent.
Dee,
What makes you uncomfortable with other people expressing adoration, praise, and worship to God during worship services? Everyone expresses worship to God in different ways, and if someone wants to sit quietly during worship and just reflect and meditate on the Lord, I don’t judge them for that. On the fip side, what may seem like an overly emotional expression to you is a beautiful act of worship for many people who truly love the Lord and who sincerely love to express their love for Him.
“So I will praise you as long as I live; in your name I will lift up my hands.” -Psalm 63:4
“lift up your hands in the sanctuary and bless the Lord†-Psalm 134:2
“Let my prayer be counted as incense before you, and the lifting up of my hands as the evening sacrifice†-Psalm 141:2
Not trying to be rude or anything, just curious is all. It’s sad- Christians from many different denominations generally believe 97% of the same thing as far as doctrine and theology are concerned, and yet instead of focusing on what unites us, we tear each other down by focusing on the other 3% where we disagree. The devil has the church so handicapped- often times we’re so busy arguing over methods that we are distracted from fulfilling the true mission of the church found in Matthew 28.
sometimes i’d just like to say:
you know, all this nonsense about
guardian angels,
and miracles,
and your belief in ghosts and spirits,
it’s like we’re living in the middle ages. know your faith, and separate your faith from all of this pagan nonsense which has become such a major part of it.
another thing i’d like to say:
sometimes reading the bible, as opposed to just living a christian life, leads to a worse understanding of humanity’s relationship with God
anon at 7:38 AM, I’d like to know where you worship. Sounds like my kind of church– one that still teaches about Guardian Angels, miracles and the Spirit is pretty rare in our stripped down, bare bones cynical world.
Sarah, the question was
“What is something you feel you can’t say in church, or around other Christians?”
Your reaction to my comment is exactly why “I can’t say it”.
Meh. I’ll go ahead and remain pseudonymous instead of going all the way anonymous. Not like anyone actually knows my secret identity or anything. (Or even cares.)
What I wish I had said to the people in my church before I left while running screaming for the horizon:
1) How can you possibly reconcile the philosophical differences between an omnipotent and all-knowing God who has a divine plan for us all, one that will be followed regardless of our own desires and hopes, and the need for a society of “prayer warriors” who attempt to influence the divine plan via fervent prayer? Does not one preclude the need for the other?
2) Does tacking a “Thy will be done.” at the end of a prayer really let God forget that we’re bugging him about a sporting event? And one in which we’re not even playing but are a thousand miles away?
3) Why is it necessary to demonize anyone that does not follow your exact parameters of faith and worship? The church down the street is NOT full of the forces of Lucifer because they stand during the first hymn and sit during the second. The great schisms over the past centuries were over significant differences of faith. These things are just picking nits in order to return to the “glory days” of long ago. Which, come to think of it, were hardly known as the “glory days” when the church was still stuck in the middle of them, were they.
4) For God’s sake, will you stick with one philosophical strategy for a change? Why should we switch between talking about “God’s love for us and therefore we should follow Him” one week and follow it up with “Hell is a pit of torture that will last all eternity for those that do not follow God and therefore we should follow Him”? Do we keep our faith because of love of God’s mercy or fear of God’s wrath? And can these two vastly different outlooks be reconciled?
I frequently want to date non-Christians because it seems like it would be less complicated. But I think my Christian friends would write me off.
You know what you can’t say in church? You can’t talk about the 4 million plus Iraqi refugees or the crimes of war being committed in Iraq every day.
Dee,
I grew up 18 years in an “Assemblies of an emotional God” church and my best friend is a fundamental baptist. Your comment made me laugh so hard!!! Thanks for putting a smile on my face today.
I can’t say in my Southern Baptist church:
1. Just because the new multi-million dollar building plan is a “God-sized challenge” (in the sense that we don’t have the money for it) doesn’t mean that it’s a challenge God wants us to accept.
2. Yes, the Bible says drunkenness is sin, but never says moderate drinking is a sin. And Jesus drank alcoholic wine, not frickin’ grape juice.
3. God is likely a lot more angry about the rampant divorce and adultery in His church than He is about gay marriage between unbelievers.
“3. God is likely a lot more angry about the rampant divorce and adultery in His church than He is about gay marriage between unbelievers.”
Sorry, but you’ve missed the boat on this one. The fact that a lot of people are committing (and often glossing over) one sin does not mean that God is less concerned about another. God calls us to holiness – to repent of adultery, divorce *and* homosexual sin, along with whatever personal pet sins we hide as well. You can’t just blow off your favorite sin as being somehow less offensive to God than the rampant sin you see in others.
The issue with gay marriage is that essentially we’re being called to overlook what God calls unholy. God is clear in His word that homosexual behavior is abominable. People in the church who promote gay marriage have to twist the Bible to make it say otherwise, and it is no accident that such groups also wind up calling other essential truths into question, such as the sufficiency of Christ to save the lost. We do need to stand up for what the Bible says, even if it isn’t popular or palatable to the unbeliever.
This thread has really caught on. See also Mark Byron and the Internet Monk.
MerryLate: I posted the 8:39 to which you responded, and your response really makes my point for me. In my Southern Baptist church, there aren’t any people who are publicly gay, but there are a number of people who are going through divorces or in a straight but unmarried sexual relationship. We spend a lot more time talking about how wrong homosexuality is than we do talking about things that would convict our tithe-paying church members (Jesus’ teaching on divorce, for example). I absolutely think homosexual acts are sin, and I don’t for a second think we should gloss over that or sugar-coat it. But I do think that sin in the church angers God more than sin outside of it. If you want to argue with that, knock yourself out.
I am an athiest who is married to former clergy (18 years in a major denomination pulpit) who switched to teaching a few years ago (got tired of the pulpit) so there isn’t much that I won’t say to a Christian. But, there are a few things:
1) Why does the atheist know more about the Bible than you? (more often than not, real over-the-top saved thumpers that I’ve encountered can’t seem to remember the context of the one-liners they spew out.)
2) If you don’t like it when people throw their lifestyles in your face, then why are you throwing your Christianity in my face? (usually when I see Christians protesting unpeacefully – i.e. protesting and confronting passerbys that aren’t involved.)
3) Would you *please* THINK about what prayer in school means? Either a mandated prayer time would be the emotional equivalent of saying the pledge of allegiance, or would be the emotionally neutral experience of study hall; I have yet to see children barely able to contain themselves from spontaneously bursting out in prayer in the middle of social studies, so they probably won’t greet the time with the same enthusiasm as their parents. Not to mention.. what makes you think that it’ll be YOUR prayer that gets used? Or even better.. what if the prayer used is constructed by committee to please a Christian, a Jew, a Muslim, a Hindu and an Aleut? That’ll be some unrecognizable and value meaningless prayer – not exactly what you’re looking for. There is no place for hard science in church and there is no place for metaphysics in public schools.
Okay.. so that last one I’ve been meaning to get off my chest for a while. Sorry
I’m very late to this thread:
Anything that suggests anything sexual
Certainly one should not hold such conversations in the foyer after services where children of all ages are running around. Discussions on sexual issues tend to occur in Sunday school classes or cell group meetings.
Just because the new multi-million dollar building plan is a “God-sized challenge” (in the sense that we don’t have the money for it) doesn’t mean that it’s a challenge God wants us to accept.
I’ve been to at least one church where this desperately needed to be said. “If you build it, he will come” is in “Field of Dreams,” not the Bible.
Nobody here attends lefty mainline churches, judging by the responses. I don’t (since I’m not a lefty mainliner), so I’m not qualified to make that list. I can offer a rule of thumb regarding an extreme example such as Trinity United Church of Christ – anything you can’t say without inviting a flame war in a Kos or Democratic Underground threas you can’t say there.
Alan points out that nobody here attends lefty mainline churches. I don’t attend one, but I’ve been in enough churches where the sermon consists of an anti-American screed about our government lying to us, etc. etc.. I don’t know what I wouldn’t be allowed to say in those places because I’m just a guest. I keep my mouth shut and roll my eyes.
The Field of Dreams comment is right on target.
What I’d like to say, is what’s with this guy going down the aisle counting people with his finger and writing in a little notebook. I’ve gone to a few churches where that goes on and it is so creepy. They must never have read what happened when David was “incited by Satan” to number the people of God. I Chron. 21
Hi I just caught this thread randomly and couldn’t resist.
I would feel like I was rocking the boat in church if I were to say that creationism and intelligent design are not science, or that Bush 43 and the Republican right are erroneous representations of faith, or that religious organizations should be taxed, or that most or all of the money spent on extrachurchicular activities would be better directed towards people living in the river bottom. Any one of those would probably raise an eyebrow, and I think they are all correct positions that do not violate scripture.
Somebody wrote, “There is no place for hard science in church and there is no place for metaphysics in public schools.”
I disagree with this, but not in the context of supporting the teaching of creationism or intelligent design as science.
Anonymous wrote,
“There is no place for hard science in church and there is no place for metaphysics in public schools.”
I disagree, but not in defense of creationism or intelligent design being taught as science. The church ought to have more sermons on science so believers can learn, and schools should openly promote metaphysical inquiry when freely identified as such and conducted in a non-dogmatic manner.