Good post Josh.

Great post, I agree completely. If any of the allegations are true, this is very sad. I don't see any political connection, though. Especially because Haggard isn't nearly as well-known among evangelicals as someone like Dr. James Dobson.

You're a tad flip with the Jared analogy; Haggard isn't accused of a diet of Monster Burgers, a much lesser sin unless you're a food [insert authoritarian pejorative]. However, sin still is sin, whether it be going back for thirds on a buffet or seconds at a orgy.

The sad truth is that a hyporcrite can know the right thing to do and yet not do it; he might be speaking from the heart about same-sex marriage, yet let his crotch do the talking elsewhere, assuming the charges are legit.

There's going to be a lot of prayer needed, mostly for the Haggard family and New Life Church in C-Springs; churches can implode on such news, driving some folks to other churches in town and others out of church altogether. The NAE will move on nicely without him.

It makes me weary for people to pick apart legitimate analogies. The only perfect analogy is the actual event. I think my analogy here is worthwhile, not flip, and makes the point well - the hypocrisy of others is not a legitimate ground to reject the truth that the hypocrite is advocating.

Why and how would this affect the election?

Stephen Bennett suggests how: "...Are Republicans disenfranchised with the hypocrisy within their own party - especially the hypocrisy within the driving force - the Christian Conservative base? You better believe it.

"The more and more hypocrisy I see each day, the more I realize next Tuesday we are going to get EXACTLY what we deserve. Yet I must NEVER forget where I came from and always remember 'But for the grace of God, there go I.'"

Although the current political atmosphere doesn't lend itself to subtletly, let me suggest a more rational reason for people to use the Haggard incident to discredit a certain type of moral stance adopted by many prominent right-wing evangelicals. Evangelical leaders often couch their arguments in terms that suggest that, in fact, they are free of both hypocrisy and sin, and that their opponents are uniquely fallen with no redeeming virtues--that Bill Clinton was little more than a fornicator, for instance, or that Democrats support gay marriage because they enjoy sodomy.

(OK, so THAT was a flip comment.)

Incidents such as Haggard's revelation underscore the risk of setting up anyone as infallible. Although Haggard did not in any way discredit the truth of the evangelical message, he certainly did discredit himself, and to some extent his organization, as a messenger. The revelations also call into question the sincerity and extent of Haggard's own religious principles.

Josh correctly notes that these drawbacks don't disprove the message, but their significance is much more salient in the political sphere, where credibility is lobbyists' only coin.

Haggard's admission that he bought (but didn't use) meth is strange. He's admitting to the part of the allegations which is probably less offensive to most evangelicals, but is in fact against the law. Andrew Sullivan was betting the opposite would be true.

Josh, you said: "It is important not to confuse hypocrisy with sin. All Christians are sinners, but not all Christians are hypocrites. There is a misconception that a Christian is a person who claims that he does not sin, but the truth is that to call oneself a Christian is to admit to being a sinner (1 John 1:5-2:2)."

The verses of 1 John 1 that you quote refer to the state of those who have not yet undergone a spiritual re-birth.

Chapter 3 of 1 John states unambiguously that spiritually re-born Christians CANNOT sin. They have no more sin in them.

Also, 1 John 1:7 "but if we walk in the light, as he is in the light, we have fellowship one with another, and the blood of Jesus his Son cleanseth us from all sin."

Well I didn't say any of that. I was quoting famed author Josh McDowell, so I didn't check on the verses that he cites.

Lord - SAVE me from your followers.

Josh

Your posting is right on when it comes to how we as a body of Christ should handle our fellow sinners misdeeds. Indeed we know that we ought to follow Jesus only, and what our fellow Christians do and do not do does not diminish the truth of we believe.

But there is nothing we can do to dictate non-Christian etiquette in processing Christian misdeeds and hypocricy. Of course they do nothing to dimish the truth. You know that, and I know that. But I don't understand where we get off telling them (journalists, pundits, voters, etc) how to take this without insulting us, as you put it.

One of our own handed the enemy the sword. We can't dictate how they should and shouldn't wield it and somehow dictate the rules of engagement.

At the risk of going down a rabbit trail, vynette is advocating the doctrine of "sinless perfection." I John 3:9-10 states that "No one who is born of God will continue to sin." Does this mean that Christians are incapable of sinning? Certainly not.

In Romans 7:18-19, Paul speaks of his struggle with sin: "I know that nothing good lives in me, that is, in my sinful nature. For I have the desire to do what is good, but I cannot carry it out. For what I do is not the good I want to do; no, the evil I do not want to do—this I keep on doing."

We must interpret Scripture as a whole. What Paul is saying is that he is still tempted to sin, and in fact does sin. But what John is saying is that a Christian does not keep on sinning--that is to say, deliberately and willfully committing what he/she knows to be sinful.

I too was awakened to this surprising, but not shocking, news this morning. I have learned that all men/women sin and we all have something in our closets that we would rather not be discovered. The real shame in Ted Haggard's case, as with many other shameful revelations of men of the cloth, is the harm that is done to Christianity. We should all be prayerful for his wife and children and his church. This will be a very stressful time for all of them. They will also suffer because of his behavior.

I don't understand how this is not hypocracy on a secular, public, political level and on a personal-Christian level. Even Swaggert admitted to being a sinner (albeit a little too publicly.) Is it allowable to proclaim publicly a huge lie, and in private, truly repent to the Lord? Please tell me how to reconcile these 2 statements:

1. but the truth is that to call oneself a Christian is to admit to being a sinner (1 John 1:5-2:2). (you)

2. But the influential Christian evangelist insisted he threw the drugs away and never had sex with the man. (yahoo article)

"I smoked but didn't inhale."???

Try, "I never sucked it, but I did hold it in my mouth for a little while."

Hi,

I haven't really noticed much talk, even in liberal blog comment sections, seeking to apply Haggard's hypocrisy to Christianity in general, or Christians in general.

That seemed to be what, for instance, the commenters at RedState think the 'left' will do, but I don't see it.

What I think is a far more realistic - and perhaps positive - scenario is that rather than Haggard reflecting badly on all Christians or Christianity, he will reflect badly on Christians in similar roles: the prominent evangelical authority figures, mega-church pastors, etc.

I think this would be positive if it led Christians to remember that their pastors and church authorities have feet of clay and are not divine.

"Haggard's admission that he bought (but didn't use) meth is strange. He's admitting to the part of the allegations which is probably less offensive to most evangelicals, but is in fact against the law. Andrew Sullivan was betting the opposite would be true."

A textbook case of being between a rock and a hard place.

(That's wanting to be made into a pun, but I won't go there.)

My post on this issue:
Church Scandals Cause Immense Harm

I think this stuff is a fucntion of the myriad of erroneous teaching so many evangelicals have been embracing over the past 15 years or so, the "Church" has really lost its way. But I don't expect most folks will get the message. The machinery of damage control will be fully employed, someone will happily move into the position of power they've coveted for so long, and many congregants will double their their denial, and efforts in the same direction. I don't think Jesus had anything to do with this. I'm sure He is good. If someone is really following Him, they have a good chance to avoid doing things like this, though snares are there for us all - sin is real. One sad part is this: faithful people, people who really care about Jesus and souls will pay a price and the big name TV preacher band will continue to play on.

Maranatha!

The fact is that a significant minority of the evangelical community does see church leadership and the Republican party as one and the same, or at least close to lock-step. That has come about through the Moral Majority, Christian Coalition, Focus on the Family (political division of it) and several other high profile individuals or groups. Many of my more mainstream religious but politically conservative Republican friends as well as my more secular conservative friends tell me they don't feel nearly as welcome at Republican gatherings. Maybe that is just a rural south-border state thing.

It should be pointed out that Haggard is purported to speak to President Bush or his advisors every Monday. I don't think they are talking about simply spiritual matters. I think they are also talking about how the evangelical community can influence the electorate to vote for Republicans. The fact that he does it greatly behind the scenes seems rather irrelevant. So, while he may not be on the ballot, he is no side-player to the Republican party. Hypocrisy is no proof that the Bible is wrong or that Christianity is flawed, but it certainly can be a factor in determining if the faith as practiced has integrity. Martin Luther never claimed that church practices or church leaders he viewed as corrupt were damning either to Christianity or the gospel, but he did believe they distorted people's understanding of Christianity and the Word. If hypocrisy is widespread, that doesn't affect the truth of what is being advocated, but it might call into question as to whether the truth of Scripture is being correctly advocated in the first place.

As far as one of your main points, I agree that Haggard's fall shouldn't affect the election. But it should be a reminder to those on the left and right that immmorality accompanies individual leaders without regard to theological perspective. Ironically, in some ways, Haggard displayed more humility in his demeanor than many other religious leaders do. Indeed, if there is an impact on the election, part of the reason might be that many religious leaders come across not simply as advancing their understanding of the Gospel but as somehow being morally superior to those whose beliefs they criticize. The truth is that even though they shouldn't, many people do vote based on emotional reasons.

Years ago, many Republicans used the moral failings of Martin Luther King to try to sway people away from voting for Democrats, so this issue cuts both ways.

When James Dobson referred to Sen. Patrick Leahy as a "God's people hater" I think he stepped over the line into sanctimony that has fed the kind of emotions that may result in Haggard's fall affecting the election at least minimally. (Personally, I think Dobson's move to set up a political arm of Focus on the Family was short-sighted; he already had the Family Research Council that had political overtones -- now Focus on the Family is widely identified with the Republican party, whether it is fair to do so or not.)

Mr Haggerman has a sermon posted on his website where he prays that deception and lies will be uncovered. I guess you have to say be careful what you wish or pray for. Everyone is a sinner (makes mistakes) but it seems a person who proclaims their "godliness" is often drawn into the extremes of sin.

I think events like Haggard should lead to some investigation into why so many people who portray themselves as being extremely virtuous have more than the average amount of self destruction and sin in their lives, while many who portray themselves as hedonistic freaks (some rock stars) are in fact mild mannered monogamous individuals.

I think events like Haggard should lead to some investigation into why so many people who portray themselves as being extremely virtuous have more than the average amount of self destruction and sin in their lives, while many who portray themselves as hedonistic freaks (some rock stars) are in fact mild mannered monogamous individuals.

I think it isn't so much what they do that's a surprise, it's what we expect them to do.

When someone claims to be extremely virtuous, even something basically innocuous (like, say, having a few beers every Friday or going to Vegas to - gasp! - gamble) becomes a Big Deal. Similarly, when we're talking about a rock star, we expect such bad behavior from them that a rockstar who "only" did cocaine every now and then (and, heck, has a few beers on Fridays and like to go to Vegas) just doesn't shock us.

Also, when we see things that seem very extreme, like Haggard's actions, it's not as if they're representative of a group (generally). It's specifically because they're so extreme that they're in the news for days, etc.

Ted Haggard was widely reported to talk with President Bush EVERY MONDAY. How can this story NOT have political implications.

Ted Haggard was widely reported to talk with President Bush EVERY MONDAY. How can this story NOT have political implications.

The man is human. The man is repentive. I do
not know this man nor his family. Yet in the end times many will fall. Many big churchs and little churches. Many loved and many not so loved. God will bring the walls and bondage and chains down. I read both his and his wife's letters and tears were brought to my eyes. Why?
Because in each of us there is a darkness. In each of us we have struggles. In each of us we have to fight temptation, evil and resist the flesh. If we do not die to these every single day and repent every single day, then satan has a crack into our being . We can rebuke it as often as we like but until we completely give up the sin and repent unto our lord in agony (if it must be) and then lay it totally down on the alter of God and nail our sins to the cross then and only then can we recover. The root problem must be extinquished with any sin. We must examine ourselves and realize that we all have those deep corners of our lives that once took over in us. It can be exaggerating, it can be lust, it can be little white lies that we say that don't mean any harm but hey we have all been guilty of saying things like"oh you look so good today, " or that outfit just is wonderful on you" or you might forget to tell your husband something about the kids. "well lets not tell your father, he might over react" Or maybe you took some grapes off of the stem at the produce counter (just to taste) Or what about the anger you felt when someone cut in front of you in the car and they were speeding and no police where there but you go 10 miles over the speed limit and get caught.Or lets not forget the porn videos or movies people go see that have such gross language and murder scenes and sex scenes. Or maybe the Playboy one has hidden the closet and lets not forget about those that live together or have sex but say they are in love. Even herbal vitamins that give you a high or too many Red Bull's . Or the drinks or beer one might have to have socially or by themselves "just because" Yes these are so little compared to what has happened in your church but isn't a sin a sin no matter what? And little things start little but once prey to it , it has a habit of growing bigger until one day you look and can not either remember how it all started or it just seems so deep that you can not stop. And are we not told to die to self every single day? The man is human , his family are hurting and must heal. I have to admire Mr. Haggard because at least it did not go on and on for weeks . Yes he denied it , but the Godly in him and the love he felt for all those hurting both he and his wife sent wonderful and respectful and loving letters of repentance out to this church members, blaming himself and knowing it is he that has a problem that needs attention. Yes he has fallen in the eyes of men, but God redeems and forgives and that is what others must do. There will be a time of healing. Even a time of anguish but just remember we are all human and before we came to Christ we all had a past no matter how small or big we all had a past. We know that God is merciful and loving and all forgiving-------that is what we must all be . And don't let satan grab a hold of any by gossiping or slandering or doing anything that is not of the Lord. For that is exactly how satan works and wants us to be so he can take hold of ones life no matter how small it starts it can grow to insurmountable highs. Dying to self is the key. Yes it is hard but the reward is great and when one knows that they are truly innocent even satan can't take hold. So be loving and kind and work on yourselves because in that you will stand victorious . I want my Father to say "you have been a good and faithful servant" What about all of you??? Let's not throw stones upon this family or man lets hold him and his family in prayer and even the man that turned him in.
Mr. Stone has a past and may not be a Christian.
His soul needs saving and the Gospel must be taught to him. What an opprotunity to change lives. Forget about the political arena and what it can and can not do just remember to vote for the one God would want in that position and what the Word of our Lord says about these things.
Be blessed.

Clearly, the time has come for my plan to protect Traditional Marriage: a constitution ban on crystal meth and gay prostitutes!