Former Speaker Betty Boothroyd neatly sidestepped the controversy by declaring that refreshments in the chamber are prohibited, even for infants.

There's something very British about that clever bit of tactfully handling a delicate subject.

Anyway, American culture badly needs a greater, not a lesser, sense of public propriety.

Oh, and we're going to get some interesting Google hits from this post! ;-)

We need some "pisstivists" to agitate for legalizing public urination for men, don't you think?

I really don't see the point behind pushing this particular envelope when all it does is marginally reduce the enormous burden of caring for an infant.

Marginally? Spoken like a guy who doesn't have children. My son was recently weaned, but if my wife hadn't been able to breastfeed in public places, we would hardly have been able to leave the house for several months. Infants nurse frequently, and breastfed infants nurse more often than bottle fed babies.

If the issue is public propriety, what do you find more disrupting: a woman quietly breastfeeding in a restaurant booth or mall bench, or a baby screaming his lungs out because he is hungry?

As a women, I have a problem with the options being either women expose themselves in public (not all but many do) OR the woman's child screams in hunger pains.

Although I am not a mother myself, I know many women who are and have breastfed. These women utilize their cars, time at home, bathrooms, and in remote hallways and such.

I find it disturbing to walk into a restaurant and sit down with a lady across the way with her breast exposed, whether her child is hungry or not.

Just as we restrain our own freedoms to preserve the freedoms of others, I believe that the nursing women should take it upon themselves to at the VERY least be COMPLETELY modest in all public areas.

If it makes me, a women with every intention of bearing and breastfeeding children,squeamish, I cannot imagine how it would make men feel.

My mom used to drape a (cloth) diaper or other item over her shoulder and the baby's head when she was breastfeeding anywhere outside her own home (I was the oldest of 4). I don't think there's anything wrong with that at all. It works, it's convenient, it's practical - and she got to get out of the house.

That said, though, there should be more places where a mother who chooses to breastfeed her baby can be both comfortable and a little more private. Not every woman who chooses to breastfeed has the common sense or dignity to do it discreetly, and with some of the activists, you get the sense that they're trying to put the issue "in your face." (pun intended).

It's funny that this is an issue in this day and age. I remember seeing women breastfeed their babies in the small, rural church I attended growing up back in the late 60s and 70s. And that was a pretty conservative bunch of people who attended my church. I think we went through this period where all mothers were feeding their babies formula for convenience and people just got used to not seeing it.

My wife and pretty much all the other mothers in our church have breastfed in public all the time. Aside from my wife, I have not once ever seen any of these women's breasts. It's not just that I've never seen their nipples. I've never seen even a portion of their breast while they're doing it. I suspect that someone who was really trying would have a very hard time. That's because they do it discreetly and cover themselves. Some will go sit in the back of the auditorium, and others will do it right in their seat wherever it is. They'll do it in a restaurant or waiting at the local Department of Motor Vehicles. There's never any sense that they need to find a bathroom. There's never any sense from people around them that this is somehow immodest. Now in New York, where it's legal for women to go topless on the beach, there's really no legal issue here. But that's not the point. Public nudity may be illegal in most places, but public nudity never has been required for public breastfeeding.

I once had to sit next to a woman on an airplane for four hours who had her entire shirt lifted up and her entire breast exposed in order to feed her baby. I don't really care where women breast feed as long as I do not have to see the breast.

What about milking one's self in the evening, and taking bottled breast milk with herself and her baby when leaving the house? That seems like a sensible, civilzed alternative to engaging in a basically animal behavior in the company of others. It's not morally wrong, obviously, to breast feed, and the sight of a mother's breast is only ghastly to the deranged or perverted - but, still, Mom, have some civility when possible.

Chuck:
What about milking one's self in the evening, and taking bottled breast milk with herself and her baby when leaving the house?

That's definitely feasible, but it requires a method of keeping the milk cold until needed and then, at least for young infants, warming it back up. Some breastfed infants reject bottles. Additionally, since the baby is drinking the bottled milk during the day, the mother will want to pump to avoid discomfort from milk buildup. So, this just substitutes breastfeeding with the problem of finding a place to pump. If you think breastfeeding looks weird, you wouldn't believe how odd a breastpump looks.

I find it odd that the focus is on what the mother and infant should do. The benefits of breastfeeding are high for mother and infant, while the burden on the general public is low to nonexistent. All the alternatives, while possible to accomplish, put a significant burden on the mother. Occasionally, you might see more breast than you would like, but propriety and good manners have a time honored solution. You don't even have to gouge your eyes out. Just don't stare. It's not polite.

WRT aircraft, if I'm sitting next to a young infant, I would love for the mother to breastfeed, and I don't care how much breast she exposes. Nursing helps the infant equalize pressure in his ears and has a soothing, soporific effect. Nursing infants take longer to feed than bottle fed babies. That all adds up to...blessed peace. IMO, mothers who breastfeed on aircraft are displaying the very best of good manners.

"That seems like a sensible, civilzed alternative to engaging in a basically animal behavior in the company of others."

Breastfeeding isn't civilized? It is an animal behavior? Any form of eating is an animal behavior -- should we all hole up in a private corner to have a snack? Why do you find a mother feeding a child the way God intended to be uncivilized? I really am amazed that usually erudite commentators are acting so sophomorically over breastfeeding. A child breastfeeding is not the equivalent of taking a whiz in public. If you are so immature to take offense to a child breastfeeding, then look away. Breastfeeding has been shown to have numerous health benefits for both the woman and child. Society shouldn't be ostracizing mothers who choose to breastfeed ("Send them to the john!"); it should be rewarding and encouraging them.

This debate need not be so steeped in philosophy. Breasts are private parts. It's as simple as that. You don't reveal private parts in public for any reason. Taking a leak is just as natural as breast-feeding and there's nothing unnatural about my anatomy. It's a part of who I am! But IT WILL NOT be seen in public! PERIOD!! I don't want to hear about babies starving to death without their precious food. If you care that much about it, keep you and them at home where you can breast-feed them to your heart's content.

Only in America - most European countries think it's funny that [some particularly vocal Americans] are offended by female breasts. Go watch TV in England sometime - it's not at all uncommon for commercials to have topless women. Or look at the Brit magazines that get imported to your local Borders - they show breasts also.

Joshua Allem,

The breastfeeding/urination analogy is a terrible one, and it dies quickly. Urine and feces are waste product; the pressure society puts on us to take those activities to a sectioned off area is out of sanitary rather than privacy concerns. Hell, those activities aren't even private. We excuse ourselves to go, so everyone around us knows, public restrooms are exactly as they sound, and it's not as if water and porcelain effectively dampen the sound. Bathrooms are not zones of privacy, they are containment areas for two specific unsanitary behaviors.

Breastfeeding doesn't have those sanitary concerns. It makes me wonder whether the people who attack mothers about breastfeeding have some weird priorities with regard to their prudishness. The US has a multi-billion dollar porn industry, Hollywood pushes out poorly-made, oversexualized drivel on a daily basis, but because some poor soul might see a nipple somewhere, at sometime, moms are better off neither seen nor heard? I don't get it.

I guess it just seems like all that energy making mothers ashamed about their body and their role in child-rearing could be better directed on an industry that deserves the vitriol

Breasts are private parts? Maybe in JanetJacksonOutrageLand. Not here in NY state. Any sunny summer day of the week, you'll find thousands of topless women sunning themselves on our beaches. The etiquette appears to be, topless on your blanket, but put on the top when you go into the water or stroll around. Boy I love it here on my little island off the coast of America!

Well then, I'm going to start a new trend. I've decided to liberate myself from the oppresion of this stunted society and will from now on, do everything in public. All waste extractions! When I get married, my wife and I will enjoy every part of our honeymoon in public. When she gives birth to my firstborn, she'll do that in public too. If anyone says anything to me about it, I'll argue that it's healthy to our bodies and that we're not ashamed of our bodies! If they still don't understand, I'll just tell them it's ok because they do it in Europe!! And Mr. LoPrete, who are you to say that my urine is any less desirable than a woman's breast-milk? That's somewhat judgemental isn't it?

Gee, it sure is easier to respond to an argument with ad hominems and straw men than it is to respond with substance.

Try again.

"Mr. LoPrete, who are you to say that my urine is any less desirable than a woman's breast-milk? That's somewhat judgemental isn't it?"

I didn't say more desirable, I spoke directly to sanitation. Even if they were equally desirable, one is MUCH less sanitary than the other; as such, the analogy doesn't work. What we're left with is the possibility that some people don't want to risk ever seeing another's breast in even the most non-sexual of contexts. If that's really the case, then it doesn't make sense that those people will spend energies on new moms when they could be going after a more worthy target.

I personally think it's not the breast part that bothers society so much as the feeding. Breasts are supposed to be for pleasure in their minds. They don't want to see, therefore associate, breasts with feeding babies as God designed. My own husband ran away when it came time to feed the baby yet sure comes running anytime I decide to take a topless dip in the pool (relax, it's private).

I agree that comparing nursing to urination is a flawed argument. Nevertheless, I think it is the intimate nature of the mother-child connection during nursing that makes many people uncomfortable when it is done in public.

Therefore (though all analogies in this case are rather flawed), I'd compare it more to two people "making out" in a public place. Though you frequently see the same or greater amount of intimacy portrayed in movies, here are two people going at it live in plain view.

Furthermore, while I realize there may be occasions where mothers have no option other than to nurse in a public place, it is always possible to do it discreetly. As LC1 said, just carry a light piece of fabric to place over the shoulder and the baby's head. Yet to some "lactivists," this seems to be considered an unacceptable burden. Such an attitude is, well, infantile.

I agree, Eric. I think it's silly that there are people out there who are scared of a breast (being used for food purposes, for god's sake), but for the ease of society, asking a woman to simply drape a towel isn't such a horrible compromise. She's not being asked to sit in the back of the bus or something.

Nonetheless, I think it's rather ridiculous.

Highlighting the difference between situations: http://www.bobandtom.com/gen3/9cover_img/boobytalk.jpg

"Nevertheless, I think it is the intimate nature of the mother-child connection during nursing that makes many people uncomfortable when it is done in public."

While it would be nice if that were the case, the reality is the discomfort stems less from the closeness of the mother/child bond and more from our societies reluctance to see breasts as something other than a sexual object.

"The reality is"? Hmm... Such an authoritative statement--I presume you have some sociological research which backs up that assertion?

Eric,

I think you're right to call on tulipgirl to provide support for her statement, but I find myself agreeing with the point. Public displays of sexual intimacy do make our society uncomfortable; your example of a couple making out in public is a case in point. But breastfeeding is not sexual at all, so I would encourage those of us still participating in the thread to find a better analogy.

Take religious intimacy, for example. Though I'm rusty on my scripture, I believe it is Jesus who tells us that private worship is a virture, as it cleanses any doubts about showmanship or peer pressure. I would also venture to add that private worship is more intimate than public worship. But that leads me to ask: can public worship also be intimate, and is that something our society tends to encourage or discourage?

Michael, I'll take you up on the religious analogy. Take, for example, a person quietly praying over their meal at a restaurant. Might make some unreligious people slightly uncomfortable, but I can't imagine anyone suggesting they shouldn't do so.

On the other hand, let's say a group of churchgoers is walking along in a mall when one of them suddenly trips and falls, spraining her ankle. They all decide the best thing to do is to form a circle around the injured person to lay hands on her, and begin praying aloud, lifting their hands, perhaps even speaking in tongues...basically an impromptu Pentecostal prayer service.

I would think that most people would feel that sort of public display of religion is inappropriate--that they should find a more discreet location or method for praying for their friend. And that despite the fact that the Constitution explicitly protects the free exercise of religion.

Both of these are behaviors which our society considers "private." When the need arises to do them in a public place, it is polite to do so discreetly.

Furthermore, to highlight a good point made by Joshua Allem up-thread (which was obscured by an anaolgy to urination), in American society the female breast *is* considered a private part. Regardless of European norms, New York beaches, or the way some folks thing things ought to be, in most places in the U.S. it is against the law for women to expose their breasts in public. The vast majority of people accept nursing as an exception to this rule, but in return we ask that mothers nursing in public be discreet about it.

Eric,

I can agree with you, and I think we can gather general consensus, that a mother ought to be able to publicly, but discreetly, nurse their child. Certainly, we can say they should, and I think I would agree with that.

It leads me to two different but important questions. First, should the government protect mothers who nurse publicly but discreetly? Second, should we penalize those mothers who are less than discreet?

My $0.02: we should have laws that establish a woman's right to breastfeed, with some sort of "with all due modesty" clause or something like that (I bet that there's off-the-shelf legal language for that somewhere), which would basically mean taking some basic measure to keep nipples out of sight. And the rest should be up to local politeness norms, which will of course vary from place to place.

Talking about passing laws is clearly not as easy as talking about reaching consensus on societal norms.

If philosopher's "right to breastfeed" law would prohibit the owner of a store or restaurant from asking patrons not to nurse infants on the premises, I would oppose such a law from a libertarian standpoint. In fact, such a law seems to be what many "lactivists" are seeking (minus the "all due modesty" clause).

Instead, I'd say that "lactivists" should vote with their dollars, and if a restaurant is unfriendly to nursing mothers they can boycott it. If there is a problem with law enforcement harassing mothers nursing discreetly in public places (or on private property with the owners' consent), then perhaps there could be a law to rectify that situation. But I'm not convinced there is any problem beyond the attitudes of those on the extreme ends of this issue.

If philosopher's "right to breastfeed" law would prohibit the owner of a store or restaurant from asking patrons not to nurse infants on the premises, I would oppose such a law from a libertarian standpoint. In fact, such a law seems to be what many "lactivists" are seeking

Such laws already exist in many states:
http://www.lalecheleague.org/Law/summary.html

Typically, the language of the laws includes things like this:

"Notwithstanding any other provision of law, a woman may breast feed in any public or private location where she is otherwise authorized to be, irrespective of whether the nipple of the mother's breast is uncovered during or incidental to the breast feeding." (North Carolina).

Most of the laws seem to cover privately owned facilities that function as public accomodations (e.g. restaurants, malls, etc). This is presumably in recognition of the fact that there a very few truly "public" (i.e. not privately owned)facilities these days.

The language of laws in some conservative southern states (e.g. South Carolina, Virginia, Utah) specifically exempt breastfeeding mothers from indecent exposure laws.

Come on guys lets get REAL!!! Breastfeeding is a natural proccess and is really NO BIG DEAL. Get over it all you pansy asssed tight lipped conservatives and pay attention to more important subjects! ENOUGH ALREADY