Josh,

Your post provides another example to back up my thesis that you are both very conservative and not very partisan. If you enter politics, your approach may make your climb a steeper challenge, but if you prevail, you'll have made politics a more idealistic process and one that less resembles sausage making.

hahahahahahahahaha

War on Christmas?

Yeah, I am sure there is a REAL threat Christmas will be outlawed in the near future!

How about the War on Civil Rights and Basic Freedoms!

how about the war on the environment.

human slave trade more prominant than drug trade

cancer epidemic

impending world war

Paraphrasing John Stewart: "Oh how I dream of the day when an openly christian person can be - dare I say it - elected president!"

Oh when will the war on christianity end?

Once again, the mighty non-Christian lobby (1.3% of Jews, .5% of Muslims and the 14.1% of those who do not follow any organized religion) have the backs of those 76.5% (159 million) of Americans identifying themselves as Christian to the wall! Thank God, we have fighters like John Gibson who refuse to be persecuted!

And let's remember this, from another writer from an earlier time, who also would not allow himself to be persecuted: " Last Christmas most people had a hard time finding Christmas cards that indicated in any way that Christmas commemorated Someone's Birth. Easter they will have the same difficulty in finding Easter cards that contain any suggestion that Easter commemorates a certain event. There will be rabbits and eggs and spring flowers, but a hint of the Resurrection will be hard to find."

That quote is from Henry Ford's 1921 periodical, The International Jew: The World's Foremost Problem.

Apparently, from the comments of the haters above, the main tenet of a non-christian is snark. What wonderful honorable people you are. How does it feel to be so small and icky?

Is that a snarky comment declaring that snarky comments make one "small and icky"? By golly, I've seen everything now.

What is a little beyond me, is the compulsion at least some Christians feel to have their religion celebrated in buildings built and maintained with government money -- schools and court houses mostly, it seems.

Often times when an effort is made to stop using government spaces as showcases for some tenet of Christianity or other, the loudest Christians are yelling their fool heads off about how liberals are trying to get rid of Christmas or God or whatever.

And of course there is the persecution. Always the persecution. The willingness of some Christians to consistently regard themselves as victimized is amazing.

One of the Christian law students wrote in another e-mail that the issue of liberal indoctrination in the classroom was on the minds of many Christian students.

Seems like the problem with this section is that Gibson is conflating "Christian" with "conservative." Or maybe it was the anonymous email-writing student who did that?

What is a little beyond me, is the compulsion at least some Christians feel to have their religion celebrated in buildings built and maintained with government money -- schools and court houses mostly, it seems.

I'm not sure that argument applies in this case. If it were a nativity scene, perhaps. But a Christmas tree is much less overtly religious. It's hard to imagine anyone genuinely being offended by it when they're going to see the same thing everywhere they go between Thanksgiving and New Year's.

There's a war against Christmas? Where do I enlist?

But a Christmas tree is much less overtly religious.

In that case, the removal of a Christmas tree shouldn't be of any particular concern to Christians.

No, Doug, it should be of general concern to everyone who doesn't want to live in a society where all the fun is drained out by PC totalitarianism.

I do think Doug makes a point I had intended to make in the post. At the beginning of the chapter Gibson explains that the Christmas tree isn't a Christian symbol, both legally and practically. At the end of the chapter he claims its removal is anti-Christian. That's clearly a contradiction and the argument must rest upon one or the other.

Josh wrote:

At the beginning of the chapter Gibson explains that the Christmas tree isn't a Christian symbol, both legally and practically. At the end of the chapter he claims its removal is anti-Christian. That's clearly a contradiction and the argument must rest upon one or the other.

I can't believe I'm about to defend Gibson on this. I think his position is patently absurd. But I think it would be reasonable to argue that even though the tree really isn't a symbol of Christmas as a religous matter, demands for its removal could still be motivated by anti-Christian sentiment.

This is one of those areas where there is plenty of irrationality on both sides. For someone to get upset by a Christmas tree in a public place is just plain silly. Christmas is every bit as much a cultural holiday as a religious one. I celebrate it, and with some verve at that, and I'm not a Christian. It has great meaning quite aside from the religious events it was originally intended to commemorate.

On the other hand, this kneejerk "oh my god the liberals are out to destroy Christmas" meme really just needs to die. It's like a political version of the phone game, where someone takes a fairly reasonable position somewhere - say, that a school shouldn't put up a nativity scene if they aren't also going to allow a Hannukah or Ramadan display - and by the time it comes out the other end you've got people claiming that the ACLU is suing department stores for mentioning Christmas. Lest you think I'm exaggerating, see here.

What is it, that feels so good about feeling persecuted?

There is a war over persecution!

Jews? Arabs? Chinese? Tibetans? Christians? Mulsims?

There should be a 'persection nobel prize'

Then all those groups can wear buttons so that everyone knows they are the most persecuted people.

Ahhh...All identification. I am christian, I am hindu, I am a man, I am this, I am that - and I have to defend my facad to the death if needed, and deam those who can threaten the validity of my persona demonic, enemies, ludicrous, et cetera.

Identification is the poison. You were not born a christian! You were not born Hindu!

These are cultural things -not innate. God is not in the business of Identification.

Satan is. That is his business. Have you seen the marketing?

Get Identified Inc.
Belzebum, President

" Feeling Lonely? Isolated? Misunderstood? Need a group to identify with, find protection in? Get Identified Inc, is your full service Existential Avoidance Agency, dedicated to insuring you never realize you are the One, All pervasive, all peaceful, complete and blissful Awareness."

" We provide easy to follow instruction on how to label enemies, start wars, and create justified genocides so as to further solidify any inner doubt which you certainly have concerning your facad - and remember, in a group - your not responsible!"

"Learn simple and easy methods for concept attachment and avoidance utilising basic exterior information channel blocking, avoiding, and pre-assumptive mental actions to assure you never have to reconsider your belief structure."

" Call Today for your free Get Indentified Inc. Persona Catalogue. 1-800-666-1234, thats, 1-800-666-1234."

"Get Identified Inc, Start Pretending TODAY!"

Why is it that TV stations find it completely appropiate to acknowledge Yom Kippur but never wish Merry Christmas??? If anyone wishes me "Happy Holidays" this CHRISTMAS SEASON I will retort by asking them to please wish me a Merry Christmas because it is the Christians time to celebrate the birth of Our Savior and I do not wish to share that time with any other celebrations....Barbara DiMaggio

Sorry Barbara,

There are over 6 Billion people in this world. There are thousands and thousand of holidays.

It is okay, though. Sharing is what Jesus did when he made lots of fish and bread and passed it around.

Anyhow, Merry Soon to Be Christmas, and Happy Thanksgiving.

Since this blog tends to be a touch Indiana centric, I would like to hear which stations only say Happy Holidays and never reference Christmas.

That being said, if a station uses "Happy Holidays" during December for its bumpers and then mentions specific holidays during its news broadcasts it seems that the station is just making it a bit simpler on themselves by only having one bumper package during the month.

Barbara Dimaggio wrote:

Why is it that TV stations find it completely appropiate to acknowledge Yom Kippur but never wish Merry Christmas???

I can only wonder what TV stations you're watching. I've never heard Yom Kippur mentioned on television except by Jewish comedians (Jon Stewart has a hilarious bit about it, comparing Yom Kippur to lent - "even in sin, you're paying retail"). I've certainly never seen a TV station do a promo wishing people a happy Yom Kippur (which, of course, would be inappropriate as it is a day of atonement, not a celebration), yet I've seen lots of promos wishing their viewers Merry Christmas, Happy Thanksgiving, Happy Holidays and so forth.

If anyone wishes me "Happy Holidays" this CHRISTMAS SEASON I will retort by asking them to please wish me a Merry Christmas because it is the Christians time to celebrate the birth of Our Savior and I do not wish to share that time with any other celebrations

That strikes me as every bit as petty and petulant as those who get offended at seeing a Christmas tree. So if a clerk at a store says "happy holidays" to you, not knowing what your religion is so they don't want to guess and be wrong, are you really going to say, in essence, "Your wishes for happiness aren't good enough, you have to wish me happiness in the manner that I prescribe or I'm going to lecture you about it"? Does this really strike you as a reasonable reaction?

To me, it's beyond absurd. It would be exactly like if I lectured someone for wishing me a Merry Christmas because I'm not a Christian, which is something I would never do in a million years. When someone says Merry Christmas to me, I say thanks and wish them a Merry Christmas as well. Because they're extending a kindness to me and it would be rude to reject that kindness because it doesn't happen to conform to my personal beliefs. It's petulant and juvenile and it puts your own version of political correctness ahead of basic human courtesy. If you really do plan to react this way to people, I strongly suggest getting a grip.

Also, to regard the time period surrounding Christmas as solely "the Christmas season" is arrogant. Other holidays take place during that period of time. Hannukah comes to mind. Also, it's the winter solstice which has been notable to humans for a long time; since they started taking note of seasons, I suspect.

I also suspect that Dec. 25 wasn't actually Jesus' birthday. Early Christians were quite willing to piggy-back off the holy days and traditions of pagan religions to gain mileage for their religion. Easter springs immediately to mind. Eos, vernal equinox, fertility symbols, etc.

Also, to regard the time period surrounding Christmas as solely "the Christmas season" is arrogant

No, it's not. The reason Western culture gets geared up for a massive gift-giving slam and loads of time off work and school is Christmas, period. No one cares about minor Jewish festivals; heck, we don't even get Yom Kippur off, and that's about as big a Jewish festival as we've got. And if they didn't have Hanukah, we'd still celebrate Christmas.

Easter springs immediately to mind.

It's based on a calculation of the Passover, actually, but don't worry your pretty little head over that. But who cares? Pretending that big winter bash around the 25th of December is about everything except Christmas is silly. It's Christmas; the Christians are giving you an excuse to get loot and take time off work, so quit whining.

I've heard it argued by ancient historian that shepherds in that part of the world at that time would not have been keeping watch by their flocks at night in late December, and that more likely Jesus was born in early spring. The holiday ultimately moved to December both to hide behind, and provide Christians with an alternative to, Saturnalia. But I'm not a historian myself, so I'm in no position to evaluate the claim more closely.

Barbara's comment does do a nice job of showing how intractable the extremists on both sides of this issue can be. Both merely add fuel to the other's fire, and the responsible thing to do is what JC is nicely at pains to do here: keep a cool head & an eye on the truth, and avoid letting what is basically a conflict between fringes turn into a proxy for the entire 'liberal' vs. 'conservative' battle (which it is anyway a completely ludicrous proxy for anyhow).

"I also suspect that Dec. 25 wasn't actually Jesus' birthday."

It wasn't; google Mithra or Sol Invictus. But who cares? After two thousand years of messing with the Christian calendar, nothing is where it should be.

What is it, that feels so good about feeling persecuted?

There is a war over persecution!

Jews? Arabs? Chinese? Tibetans? Christians? Mulsims?

There should be a 'persection nobel prize'

Then all those groups can wear buttons so that everyone knows they are the most persecuted people.

Ahhh...All identification. I am christian, I am hindu, I am a man, I am this, I am that - and I have to defend my facad to the death if needed, and deam those who can threaten the validity of my persona demonic, enemies, ludicrous, et cetera.

Identification is the poison. You were not born a christian! You were not born Hindu!

These are cultural things -not innate. God is not in the business of Identification.

Satan is. That is his business. Have you seen the marketing?

Get Identified Inc.
Belzebum, President

" Feeling Lonely? Isolated? Misunderstood? Need a group to identify with, find protection in? Get Identified Inc, is your full service Existential Avoidance Agency, dedicated to insuring you never realize you are the One, All pervasive, all peaceful, complete and blissful Awareness."

" We provide easy to follow instruction on how to label enemies, start wars, and create justified genocides so as to further solidify any inner doubt which you certainly have concerning your facad - and remember, in a group - your not responsible!"

"Learn simple and easy methods for concept attachment and avoidance utilising basic exterior information channel blocking, avoiding, and pre-assumptive mental actions to assure you never have to reconsider your belief structure."

" Call Today for your free Get Indentified Inc. Persona Catalogue. 1-800-666-1234, thats, 1-800-666-1234."

"Get Identified Inc, Start Pretending TODAY!"

I liked all the comments. Interesting to see all of these points of view.

I guess my point of view is that the only real issue is class/status. If the great division amongst salaries were equalized and if some of the corporate power that goes along with that curtailed most of the secondary problems such as anti-religion, abortion, legalizing drugs, etc. would be on a more level playing field.

As far as anti-christian, anti-judaism, anti-islam, etc., it all exists out there. I do not follow any of the religions (grew up Catholic) spiritually but see daily examples of each "anti-" committed by each. All religions mainly push their beliefs into selling you on a positive, and sometimes flawless, appearance to their religion as well as covering up or muting any flaws that arise. These people seem not to delve into reality with an open, fair-sighted mind when discussing their particular sect. Christians show it with hiding priests from crimes (and these are the only ones we've heard about. It's scary. Just how many pedaphiliac priests are out there), Jews use their media power to promote the bad things on other religions (Jon Stewart is a perfect example, has he ever said anything as biting about being Jewish as he does about Islam or Christians? I would like to see a Muslim or Christian say such things and get away with it.), Islam and it's involvement in terrorism (of course so is the U.S.). Each of these religions promotes mainly from their own sect. U.S. Presidents are always Christian, for such a tiny minority there sure are a lot of Jewish stars and media personalities, and Islam well I have no specific examples here but I will say they are like the Christians and Jews that promote within and allow only fellow members to functions, events, posts, etc.

I see everything as biased and everyone's fighting for a larger share of the space. If you criticize one religion you might as well turn around and criticize your own.

Christmas literally means Christ's Birth. And theat is the meaning of the season