<?xml version="1.0" encoding="UTF-8"?><rss version="2.0"
	xmlns:content="http://purl.org/rss/1.0/modules/content/"
	xmlns:dc="http://purl.org/dc/elements/1.1/"
	xmlns:atom="http://www.w3.org/2005/Atom"
	xmlns:sy="http://purl.org/rss/1.0/modules/syndication/"
		>
<channel>
	<title>Comments on: Behe Disproves Irreducible Complexity</title>
	<atom:link href="http://www.intheagora.com/archives/2005/10/behe_disproves_irreducible_complexity/feed/" rel="self" type="application/rss+xml" />
	<link>http://www.intheagora.com/archives/2005/10/behe_disproves_irreducible_complexity/?source=rss</link>
	<description>current events, culture, faith, science and more</description>
	<lastBuildDate>Thu, 18 Mar 2010 21:30:31 -0700</lastBuildDate>
	<generator>http://wordpress.org/?v=2.8.2</generator>
	<sy:updatePeriod>hourly</sy:updatePeriod>
	<sy:updateFrequency>1</sy:updateFrequency>
		<item>
		<title>By: jmn</title>
		<link>http://www.intheagora.com/archives/2005/10/behe_disproves_irreducible_complexity/comment-page-1/#comment-17462</link>
		<dc:creator>jmn</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 27 Dec 2006 20:24:24 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://intheagora.com/2005/10/behe_disproves_irreducible_complexity.html#comment-17462</guid>
		<description>When Louis Pasteur made a simple experiment to show that Expontaneus Generation (evolution is only a more sophisticated form of EG as it says that from the lower it can achieve the higher) - was impossible, many scientist of his time still hold that absurd theory and opposed Pasteur. Its just a mather of time show Mr. Behe is right.
</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>When Louis Pasteur made a simple experiment to show that Expontaneus Generation (evolution is only a more sophisticated form of EG as it says that from the lower it can achieve the higher) &#8211; was impossible, many scientist of his time still hold that absurd theory and opposed Pasteur. Its just a mather of time show Mr. Behe is right.</p>
]]></content:encoded>
	</item>
	<item>
		<title>By: The Commissar</title>
		<link>http://www.intheagora.com/archives/2005/10/behe_disproves_irreducible_complexity/comment-page-1/#comment-17461</link>
		<dc:creator>The Commissar</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 28 Oct 2005 14:02:39 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://intheagora.com/2005/10/behe_disproves_irreducible_complexity.html#comment-17461</guid>
		<description>Great work, Ed.
Linked.
</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Great work, Ed.<br />
Linked.</p>
]]></content:encoded>
	</item>
	<item>
		<title>By: Jim S</title>
		<link>http://www.intheagora.com/archives/2005/10/behe_disproves_irreducible_complexity/comment-page-1/#comment-17460</link>
		<dc:creator>Jim S</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 24 Oct 2005 07:50:47 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://intheagora.com/2005/10/behe_disproves_irreducible_complexity.html#comment-17460</guid>
		<description>Here is a link to a very interesting article related to this debate:
http://www.boston.com/news/globe/ideas/articles/2005/10/23/missing_links/
</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Here is a link to a very interesting article related to this debate:<br />
<a href="http://www.boston.com/news/globe/ideas/articles/2005/10/23/missing_links/" rel="nofollow">http://www.boston.com/news/globe/ideas/articles/2005/10/23/missing_links/</a></p>
]]></content:encoded>
	</item>
	<item>
		<title>By: Mean Dean</title>
		<link>http://www.intheagora.com/archives/2005/10/behe_disproves_irreducible_complexity/comment-page-1/#comment-17459</link>
		<dc:creator>Mean Dean</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 24 Oct 2005 05:46:33 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://intheagora.com/2005/10/behe_disproves_irreducible_complexity.html#comment-17459</guid>
		<description>42 ... wait a minute ... isn&#039;t that the answer?
</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>42 &#8230; wait a minute &#8230; isn&#8217;t that the answer?</p>
]]></content:encoded>
	</item>
	<item>
		<title>By: Ed Brayton</title>
		<link>http://www.intheagora.com/archives/2005/10/behe_disproves_irreducible_complexity/comment-page-1/#comment-17458</link>
		<dc:creator>Ed Brayton</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 23 Oct 2005 19:33:28 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://intheagora.com/2005/10/behe_disproves_irreducible_complexity.html#comment-17458</guid>
		<description>Barry Bowen wrote:
&lt;blockquote&gt;Even small genetic changes of this size can be counterproductive. Example: &quot;If even one amino acid in the sequence is changed, that can potentially change the protein&#039;s ability to function. For example,sickle cell anemia is caused by a change in only one nucleotide in the DNA sequence that causes just one amino acid in one of the hemoglobin polypeptide molecules to be different. Because of this, the whole red blood cell ends up being deformed and unable to carry oxygen properly.&quot;&lt;/blockquote&gt;
Of course any single mutation can be highly deleterious. But that is taken into account in the Behe article and in any experiment involving rates of mutation and time frames. Most point mutations will change a single amino acid in a protein sequence and knockout experiments tell us that most mutations are fairly neutral, that you could replace a sizable portion of the amino acids with another amino acid, one at a time, without significantly impairing the protein&#039;s function. But there are certain key areas in the sequence - and a binding site is typically one of them - where mutations will tend to be harmful.
All of that is taken into account when doing this type of time frame experiment. Only a small percentage of the mutations will be beneficial or neutral. For a change to be preserved, it need only not be fatal. If a point mutation is neutral, as it will be even in a key binding site a small percentage of the time, it can be preserved and passed on to await the next point mutation. That is exactly what Behe&#039;s computer simulation found, that even without any beneficial preservation of intermediates and even with wildly unrealistic assumptions to skew the experiment against it, the results show that an irreducibly complex system can develop in a relatively short period of time.
</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Barry Bowen wrote:</p>
<blockquote><p>Even small genetic changes of this size can be counterproductive. Example: &#8220;If even one amino acid in the sequence is changed, that can potentially change the protein&#8217;s ability to function. For example,sickle cell anemia is caused by a change in only one nucleotide in the DNA sequence that causes just one amino acid in one of the hemoglobin polypeptide molecules to be different. Because of this, the whole red blood cell ends up being deformed and unable to carry oxygen properly.&#8221;</p></blockquote>
<p>Of course any single mutation can be highly deleterious. But that is taken into account in the Behe article and in any experiment involving rates of mutation and time frames. Most point mutations will change a single amino acid in a protein sequence and knockout experiments tell us that most mutations are fairly neutral, that you could replace a sizable portion of the amino acids with another amino acid, one at a time, without significantly impairing the protein&#8217;s function. But there are certain key areas in the sequence &#8211; and a binding site is typically one of them &#8211; where mutations will tend to be harmful.<br />
All of that is taken into account when doing this type of time frame experiment. Only a small percentage of the mutations will be beneficial or neutral. For a change to be preserved, it need only not be fatal. If a point mutation is neutral, as it will be even in a key binding site a small percentage of the time, it can be preserved and passed on to await the next point mutation. That is exactly what Behe&#8217;s computer simulation found, that even without any beneficial preservation of intermediates and even with wildly unrealistic assumptions to skew the experiment against it, the results show that an irreducibly complex system can develop in a relatively short period of time.</p>
]]></content:encoded>
	</item>
	<item>
		<title>By: Ed Brayton</title>
		<link>http://www.intheagora.com/archives/2005/10/behe_disproves_irreducible_complexity/comment-page-1/#comment-17457</link>
		<dc:creator>Ed Brayton</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 23 Oct 2005 19:22:05 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://intheagora.com/2005/10/behe_disproves_irreducible_complexity.html#comment-17457</guid>
		<description>Jim S wrote:
&lt;blockquote&gt;I always find myself wondering what they consider irreducibly complex now, what they would have considered irreducibly complex 10 years ago, 20 years ago, etc.&lt;/blockquote&gt;
This is a very good point, one I make often in this dispute. It&#039;s especially appropriate to ask Michael Behe because there are so many complex biochemical systems (those requiring the interaction of multiple parts for function) for which he accepts an evolutionary explanation. But at some point, a scientists researching that particular system came up with a plausible explanation, hypothesized the mutations that may have taken place, performed an experiment (usually a knockout experiment) that validated his hypothesis and published a compelling explanatino for the developmental pathway for that particular system. And at any time up to that point, Behe could and would have made the very same argument regarding that system as he does today about the flagellum or the blood clotting cascade. And the argument would, by his own admission today, have been wrong. So why is it any more compelling when applied to systems whose development is not currently understood and explained thoroughly? Not because there is an objective difference between the two systems, but because this truly is a god of the gaps argument.
</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Jim S wrote:</p>
<blockquote><p>I always find myself wondering what they consider irreducibly complex now, what they would have considered irreducibly complex 10 years ago, 20 years ago, etc.</p></blockquote>
<p>This is a very good point, one I make often in this dispute. It&#8217;s especially appropriate to ask Michael Behe because there are so many complex biochemical systems (those requiring the interaction of multiple parts for function) for which he accepts an evolutionary explanation. But at some point, a scientists researching that particular system came up with a plausible explanation, hypothesized the mutations that may have taken place, performed an experiment (usually a knockout experiment) that validated his hypothesis and published a compelling explanatino for the developmental pathway for that particular system. And at any time up to that point, Behe could and would have made the very same argument regarding that system as he does today about the flagellum or the blood clotting cascade. And the argument would, by his own admission today, have been wrong. So why is it any more compelling when applied to systems whose development is not currently understood and explained thoroughly? Not because there is an objective difference between the two systems, but because this truly is a god of the gaps argument.</p>
]]></content:encoded>
	</item>
	<item>
		<title>By: Barry Bowen</title>
		<link>http://www.intheagora.com/archives/2005/10/behe_disproves_irreducible_complexity/comment-page-1/#comment-17456</link>
		<dc:creator>Barry Bowen</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 23 Oct 2005 18:58:56 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://intheagora.com/2005/10/behe_disproves_irreducible_complexity.html#comment-17456</guid>
		<description>Even small genetic changes of this size can be counterproductive. Example: &quot;If even one amino acid in the sequence is changed, that can potentially change the protein&#039;s ability to function. For example,sickle cell anemia is caused by a change in only one nucleotide in the DNA sequence that causes just one amino acid in one of the hemoglobin polypeptide molecules to be different. Because of this, the whole red blood cell ends up being deformed and unable to carry oxygen properly.&quot;
&lt;p&gt;
http://biology.clc.uc.edu/courses/bio104/protein.htm&lt;/p&gt;
</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Even small genetic changes of this size can be counterproductive. Example: &#8220;If even one amino acid in the sequence is changed, that can potentially change the protein&#8217;s ability to function. For example,sickle cell anemia is caused by a change in only one nucleotide in the DNA sequence that causes just one amino acid in one of the hemoglobin polypeptide molecules to be different. Because of this, the whole red blood cell ends up being deformed and unable to carry oxygen properly.&#8221;</p>
<p>
<a href="http://biology.clc.uc.edu/courses/bio104/protein.htm" rel="nofollow">http://biology.clc.uc.edu/courses/bio104/protein.htm</a></p>
]]></content:encoded>
	</item>
	<item>
		<title>By: Jim S</title>
		<link>http://www.intheagora.com/archives/2005/10/behe_disproves_irreducible_complexity/comment-page-1/#comment-17455</link>
		<dc:creator>Jim S</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 23 Oct 2005 18:13:16 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://intheagora.com/2005/10/behe_disproves_irreducible_complexity.html#comment-17455</guid>
		<description>I always find myself wondering what they consider irreducibly complex now, what they would have considered irreducibly complex 10 years ago, 20 years ago, etc.
</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I always find myself wondering what they consider irreducibly complex now, what they would have considered irreducibly complex 10 years ago, 20 years ago, etc.</p>
]]></content:encoded>
	</item>
	<item>
		<title>By: Hanspeter</title>
		<link>http://www.intheagora.com/archives/2005/10/behe_disproves_irreducible_complexity/comment-page-1/#comment-17454</link>
		<dc:creator>Hanspeter</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 23 Oct 2005 14:27:18 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://intheagora.com/2005/10/behe_disproves_irreducible_complexity.html#comment-17454</guid>
		<description>I don&#039;t think Irreducible Complexity was really disproven by Behe&#039;s cross-examination, but the example he used in the journal paper to prove it &lt;b&gt;was&lt;/b&gt; taken apart.  If you&#039;re going to use a simplified example to state your case, at least make the basic assumptions you use fit reality.  If your model breaks apart when the starting axioms are found to be fundamentally flawed, your model might still be right, but it is now that much harder to prove since you not only have to create new accurate axioms, those axioms then undergo much stricter scrutiny to make sure they&#039;re accurate.  Of course, this makes the explanation more complex (in proving the axioms) and introduces more areas for both error and fudging.  Maybe explaining Irreducible Complexity is irreducibly complex :)
</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I don&#8217;t think Irreducible Complexity was really disproven by Behe&#8217;s cross-examination, but the example he used in the journal paper to prove it <b>was</b> taken apart.  If you&#8217;re going to use a simplified example to state your case, at least make the basic assumptions you use fit reality.  If your model breaks apart when the starting axioms are found to be fundamentally flawed, your model might still be right, but it is now that much harder to prove since you not only have to create new accurate axioms, those axioms then undergo much stricter scrutiny to make sure they&#8217;re accurate.  Of course, this makes the explanation more complex (in proving the axioms) and introduces more areas for both error and fudging.  Maybe explaining Irreducible Complexity is irreducibly complex <img src='http://www.intheagora.com/wp-includes/images/smilies/icon_smile.gif' alt=':)' class='wp-smiley' /> </p>
]]></content:encoded>
	</item>
	<item>
		<title>By: Doug</title>
		<link>http://www.intheagora.com/archives/2005/10/behe_disproves_irreducible_complexity/comment-page-1/#comment-17453</link>
		<dc:creator>Doug</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 23 Oct 2005 12:01:49 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://intheagora.com/2005/10/behe_disproves_irreducible_complexity.html#comment-17453</guid>
		<description>Not knowing the science at all, just going from what I read here, my guess is that the argument would be that the example of &quot;irreducible complexity&quot; that took 20,000 years was a simple one. &quot;If it will take 20,000 years to develop a disulfide bond, just think what it would take to develop an optic nerve.&quot; Or something.
But yeah, under the circumstances, it sounds like it would take considerably less time to develop a disulfide bond under real world circumstances, like this study does nothing to show Darwinian evolution is impossible or even unlikely, and the ID crowd isn&#039;t going to fare well in any forum where it is put under the microscope, so to speak.
</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Not knowing the science at all, just going from what I read here, my guess is that the argument would be that the example of &#8220;irreducible complexity&#8221; that took 20,000 years was a simple one. &#8220;If it will take 20,000 years to develop a disulfide bond, just think what it would take to develop an optic nerve.&#8221; Or something.<br />
But yeah, under the circumstances, it sounds like it would take considerably less time to develop a disulfide bond under real world circumstances, like this study does nothing to show Darwinian evolution is impossible or even unlikely, and the ID crowd isn&#8217;t going to fare well in any forum where it is put under the microscope, so to speak.</p>
]]></content:encoded>
	</item>
</channel>
</rss>
