Good topic and good comments. There was some discussion in the earlier note on Bono about how doing good things won't get you into heaven, and how even people who live their whole lives committed to evil can satisfy God if they repent.

The Bible recorded the life of Manassas, who was one of the most wicked kings of Israel, yet he repented on his deathbed and that was enough. The thief on the cross was another example - he said "Lord I believe," and Jesus said "Today you will be with me in Paradise."

If God's grace isn't sufficient to save the most heinous sinner, it's not sufficient for any of us.... :)

None can fathom God's grace, of course. However, for a perverted, murdering coward to suddenly awaken to the possibility of God's grace on the day of his sentencing seems questionable at best. It should also be noted that Rader is known to shift his personality depending on the circumstances he is in. It is hard to imagine he has a soul.

Forensic psychiatrist, Dr. Michael Welner, on serial killers: "If they exhibit emotion, it's an effort to create an impression."

I wanted to correct my earlier statement - I was under the misapprehension that Manasseh (corrected spelling) had repented on his deathbed, but apparently, it was not just before his death but as a result of the distresses of war. The saga is set forth in 2 Chronicles 33, et al. He repented and went on to make significant changes as a result of his repentance and return to the Lord, so there was evidence in his life that he had, in fact, truly repented.

The thief on the cross was right.... :)

I take comfort in knowing that God forgives even the worst of us.

I only wonder if being a vicious killer corrupts your heart even to the point where you can't sincerely repent. It seems a bit too pat to be able to be a monster one day and a follower of Christ the next. But, that's for God and BTK to work out between them. I'm just thankful for my own grace.

I find the logic of this particular belief system troubling. Heinous killers with death bed repentance go to heaven. People who treat their fellow humans in an excellent fashion but do not believe, go to hell. As a matter of memetics, that works pretty well. The meme, in this case a particular kind of Christianity, is mainly "concerned" with spreading to as many hosts as possible. Therefore, believers, no matter how heinous, are positive for the meme. Unbelievers, no matter how upright as human beings, do nothing to propogate the meme and are, therefore, useless.

Then of course, you have the problem of why an omnipotent, omniscient God allows or possibly even causes (depending on how you feel about predestination) such things as the BTK killer.

It is the same logic, Doug, that allows the "reborn," no matter how obnoxious or degenerate they were before their rebirth as evangelical Christians, to accuse people who tried their entire lives to be decent citizens, good workers, and moral human beings who disagree with them on the minutiae of the Bible and on hot button cultural issues of being evil.

It sure is hard to beat the concept of true grace in terms of sheer beauty and power, however.

If it makes you feel any better, even those who are forgiven are still subject to judgment - their works will be judged at what is identified as the judgment seat of Christ (cf. the new testament book of 2 Corinthians). Their (our) works will be judged to determine if they were done for the right motive....

But the other thing is, as Christians, our job is not to go around accusing anyone - our job is to make disciples. It's the Bible that says people without Christ are condemned.

Jesus said, "I am the way, the truth and the life. No man comes to the Father but by Me." (Gospel of John).

The apostle Paul said, "For all have sinned and come short of the glory of God" (Romans), and "The wages of sin is death, but the gift of God is eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord." He also said "For by grace are you saved through faith - it is the gift of God, not of works lest any man should boast."

Chuck,

That's why Eric and others refer to it as the "scandal of grace." It truly is a great mystery and what becomes questionable for human reasoning becomes possible through God.

Do I think Adolph Hitler made a death-bed conversion? No and absolutely no. But the possibility cannot entirely be ruled out because I'm not God. I love the "I hold the keys of hell and death" passage from Revelation.

I agree with those who explain that salvation does not mean that we escape judgment. We will all be held accountable for what we have or have not done, regardless of the hope and promise of pardon.

The idea that the evil-believer will go to heaven (and be judged, apparently) is far less troubling to me than that the good-unbeliever will go to hell. From my perspective, that looks like a tool designed to spread the religion more effectively.

Doug, for a better discussion, you might try "The Problem of Pain" by C.S. Lewis. He's a good writer about almost anything, but his logic is clear and concise.

So what about Mukaluk?

Mukaluk lived about 500 years ago in a remote part of what we now call Alaska. He was a good man, lived a good life, loved his wife and kids, taught his children well, and provided for his family. He deal honestly with his fellow man and cheerfully helped others without being asked.

No missionary ever arrived to tell Mukaluk about Jesus Christ. Mukaluk never heard of him. As such, Mukaluk lived his entire honorable life--and then died--without ever professing Christ's name. Without ever accepting Christ's grace (because, of course, he had no way of even knowing about it.)

Apparently, Mukaluk is going to hell.

How *unlucky* for him to be born in the wrong place at the wrong time, without any chance to be saved in the eternities.

And how *lucky* for the murderous Rader to profess repentence on his deathbed and be saved.

Rader ... Mukaluk. Indeed, that *is* a "Scandal of Grace".

"Death-bed repentance" is such a strange and un-biblical concept. Jesus tells us that repentance that doesn't bring forth the fruits of righteousness isn't repentance at all (Matthew 7:21, Luke 3:8-9). A confession of belief by itself is no better than what demons themselves can manage (James 2:19).

While good works will not save anyone, they are, for the believer, the fruit or result of faith in Jesus Christ. As James 2 tells us, a professed faith -- or sorrowful repentance -- is meaningless and dead without the "good fruit" as its outward manifestation. Jesus clearly teaches that what we do is an outward manifestation of who we are (Matt 7:16-20).

Will Rader truly repent and thus be forgiven? I have no idea. His sorrow now seems to be "worldly sorrow" rather than "Godly sorrow" (2 Cor 7:10), the type that brings spiritual death rather than actual repentance. But he's going to have several decades to work it out with God. Repentance and forgiveness is a possibility I wouldn't deny even to him (which is why I'm against the death penalty), but OTOH I believe those like him have seared their conscience -- indeed, 1 Timothy 4:2 seems to be speaking about people exactly like Rader (consider that he was president of his church while committing these heinous murders!).

Finally, in terms of judgement, 1 Cor 3:10-15 is worth considering. Paul teaches by metaphor the relationship between faith and works: no good (lasting, salvific) structure can be built without the foundation of Christ. But we decide what to build on this foundation, and show this by the works of our lives. We can build out of things that last -- good works he denotes as gold, silver, precious gems -- or trivial, ephemeral, worldly works of hay, wood, or straw. At Judgement these works will be 'proved' by fire -- the worldly being consumed, the eternal being preserved. Interestingly, Paul makes it sound (v15) that even believers without much surviving judgement will be saved, but as one escaping a burning house, with nothing left to show for it. Looping back to where this started, this passage doesn't show the efficacy of death-bed confessions of faith, but that even the most imperfect of believers has the possibility of being saved by the sacrifice of Jesus Christ.

I don't see any scandal of grace here, really. We don't know what will happen with those like Rader, but we know God is both loving and just. While I would not deny God's mercy to even one like Rader if he truly repents and builds on the foundation of Christ, I also can't think of anything more hellish than for someone like Rader to be left alone, apart from God for eternity with a clear and unflinching understanding both of his depraved actions and what he could have been. To me that is the definition of eternal torment.

Randall Whittle-

Logic would appear to dictate that *Mukaluk* would share the same fate as a baby who dies unbaptized (according to Catholic teaching).

Official Church teaching remains that the status of these souls who don't seem to deserve  hell, yet can't make it into heaven is in limbo – in other words, their fate cannot be determined.

However, it appears that these speculations are only extended to the mentally handicapped, children younger than the age of reason, the unborn, and Old Testament saints. It appears that the geographically handicapped, like *Mukaluk,* share another fate.

For Catholics, hell is a state of being involving "the pain, frustration, and emptiness of life without God."

Conservative Protestants see hell, on the other hand, as an actual physical place of unbearable torture which lasts for all eternity with no hope of mercy, relief or cessation.

Some Conservative Protestants (of the "true Christians" are only those who have been "born again" school) view Catholics as non-Christian, too. I suppose Catholics will also share *Mukaluk's* fate if God is, indeed, the God of the Conservative Protestant. That would also be a "scandal of grace."

Except if you look at the book of Acts, as well as in other books in the Bible, you see that nature points to the existence of a creator.

Without getting into what we got into on another thread, the existence of the earth, nature, animals, etc., point to a creator - and people ask the question "where did this come from" by God's design.

You also see the example of Philip and the Ethiopian eunuch - the eunuch was reading from the old testament Scripture of Isaiah, and the Bible says that the spirit of God led Philip to the man who had questions about what he had read.

There are anectdoctal (sp?) accounts of missionaries getting lost in places and having people come up to them to ask "are you here to tell us about the unseen one" or however their language/culture describes the true God.

The Bible is clear that those who die without Christ are lost - for those of us who claim to be His, it is our obligation to tell others what Christ has done in our lives and offer to "make the introduction" so to speak. But it is also clear that those who seek God will find Him - that's a promise!!

It is certainly not clear to Jews, whose Bible only includes the Old Testament.

I appear to have made a very big error in my earlier post regarding the eternal fate of Randall Whittle's, *Mukaluk,* according to Catholic teaching, at least post-Vatican II:

"The non-Christian may not be blamed for his ignorance of Christ and his Church; salvation is open to him also, if he seeks God sincerely and if he follows the commands of his conscience, for through this means the Holy Ghost acts upon all men; this divine action is not confined within the limited boundaries of the visible Church."

Liberal Christian faith groups generally reject the necessity of salvation entirely. They also reject the entire concept of eternal punishment in Hell for anyone - saved or unsaved. Placing people in Hell because they have not heard the Gospel (and thus have not accepted it) is viewed as profoundly immoral.

Part of the problem is what is good. From man's point that may be subjective but not from God's.
Mr 10:18 And Jesus said unto him, Why callest thou me good? there is none good but one, that is, God. Of course Jesus was asking this man if he was calling Him God but the statement that "none is good but one, that is, God." is pretty clear.
In Matthew 5-7, Jesus is, among other things, giving us a little clearer view of the holiness of God. It's only a matter of degrees between being angry with your brother and being a murderer and in those terms we're all murderers though most of us haven't commited the act.
Another thing to consider involves this statememt, Joh 6:44 No man can come to me, except the Father which hath sent me draw him: and I will raise him up at the last day. It appears that our sin nature will prevent us from pleading guilty and throwing ourselves on the mercy of the court which was paid for by Jesus sacrifice so God must give us some help in the drawing of the Holy Spirit. Does God draw everyone? I suspect that He does as He desires that no one perish but that all repent. Would Hitler or BTK be less likely to believe God would forgive them? Probably. Then again, it's very difficult for those who would be called good by most people to overcome their own pride and admit they need a savior. Remember that God knows the heart. A few disingenuous words won't buy you fire insurance.
On the subject of babies look at David's different reactions to the death of the child of his sin with Bathsheba and the death of Absalom, his adult son who had rebeled against God's anointed (David). It's apparent that he thinks the child will be in heaven and is very worried about Absalom.

If it makes anyone feel any better, Dennis Raider was president of an ELCA congregation, which, in my mind, explains a lot. As someone who lives in Wichita and has been terrorized by this person for all my 29 years, I would say the fact he took one of his victims to his church and put her up on the altar to take pictures of the corpse makes it difficult for me to believe he has truly repented. Also considering most ELCA pastors wouldn't know how to preach repentance even if you pointed it out to them and taught them how to do it, I am a little skeptical of any change of heart.

To John S - regarding your comment that it's not clear to Jews whose Bible only includes the old Testament. Isaiah and Micah prophesied the coming of the Messiah and explained how He was coming and what He would do - the rest of the Old Testament scriptures are replete with references to Jesus as the Messiah.

As far as the Bible being clear that those who seek God will find him, the verse that led to my statement comes from Jeremiah, specifically Jeremiah 29 -

'You will seek Me and find Me when you search for Me with all your heart. 'I will be found by you,' declares the LORD, 'and I will restore your fortunes and will gather you from all the nations and from all the places where I have driven you,' declares the LORD, 'and I will bring you back to the place from where I sent you into exile.'

God's promises are always kept - sometimes decades or centuries after He makes them. He promises that He will be found by those who seek Him.

I don't see the ELCA comment as particularly relevant. There's enough failure of Christianity as an institution to spread around both left and right, orthodox and progressive.

The following is from today's "Word of Encouragement" from Mark Shea and Jeff Cavins of the Catholic Exchange. They hit this particular nail right on the head:

John 14:6
Jesus said to him, "I am the way, and the truth, and the life; no one comes to the Father, but by me."

In Greek mythology, there was a dangerous place in the sea near the world's end with two terrible rocks called Scylla and Charybdis. In avoiding the one, sailors usually smashed into the other. The trick was to sail between them. The devil, as C.S. Lewis says, is fond of sending his lies into the world in pairs like that too, so that in avoiding one lie, we might embrace the opposite lie. In the past, Christians have embraced a lie that twists the meaning of today's verse: namely, the notion that only those who are consciously aware of the name of Jesus and have "asked him into their hearts as their personal Lord and Savior" are going to go to heaven. Then, in reaction to this, other people have rejected the idea that Jesus matters for our salvation at all. Such people say it's compulsory heaven for everybody (except maybe Hitler and Stalin). Between these twin lies-- these theological Scylla and Charybdis--the Ship of Peter sails, teaching that the only way to God is Jesus (since he is God) but that it is not necessarily the case that each person Jesus saves be conscious that it is Jesus doing the saving. Abraham, for instance, never heard Jesus' name. But he was faithful to the light Jesus gave him and followed it all the way to heaven. Today, let us as Catholics be thankful for (and responsible to obey) the light Jesus has given us. Let us neither pass judgement on our neighbor, nor ignore our responsibility to bear witness to Jesus. That way, we can sail on through to heaven and bring a few folks with us as we go!

Well put, Dorothy.

Regarding Mukaluk and those billions who have died without hearing the gospel of Christ; there is indication in the Bible that these people might yet hear the gospel and have a chance to choose or reject it on the other side before judgement day arrives, as indicated in 1 Peter 4:6 which says, "For for this cause was the gospel preached also to them that are dead, that they might be judged according to men in the flesh, but live according to God in the spirit."

This is further substantiated in 1 Peter 3:18-20 which says, "For Christ also hath once suffered for sins, the just for the unjust, that he might bring us to God, being put to death in the flesh, but quickened by the Spirit: By which also he went and preached unto the spirits in prison; Which sometime were disobedient, when once the longsuffering of God waited in the days of Noah, while the ark was a preparing, wherein few, that is, eight souls were saved by water."

This is such a vital doctrine that I'm surprised more Christians have not latched onto it as offering hope for the billions who have died without a knowledge of Christ.

It's a good point, Robert, but I think the time you're referring to - "By which also he went and preached unto the spirits in prison" - applied to the time between His crucifixion and resurrection.

I'll look it up (don't recall right now where it is) but I thought there was something in the Old Testament and in the New Testament about Christ going to "Abraham's bosom" which was where those people who had believed in God's promises before Jesus died waiting for the fulfillment of the promise of His coming.

The parable of Lazarus and the rich man in which Lazarus is in Abraham's bosom being comforted and the rich man is in torment described what happened to people who died before Christ came.

Hebrews 11 also talks about those who were saved by their faith in God's promises even though they were born and died centuries before Christ's coming. The crux of the question is still faith in God.

Without getting into the whole creation-evolution debate again, observing God's creation prompts the question "how did this world come to be?" by intent.

And, God promised that those who seek Him will find Him - the how isn't necessarily explained, although it goes back to the instructions Christ left: as you are going forth into the world, make disciples... (paraphrase from the Greek, but that's the "Great Commission" - to make disciples).

Acts describes the number of missionary journeys made by Paul and others - church history documents the spread of Christianity after that.

Why would Christian priests turn away any sinner, howsoever evil? After all, he might leave the church money in his will.

i'm glad they caught BTK. he has no business being out in society. he is a monster incarnate and he deserves to be incarcerated for the rest of his life. i cannot believe how unthoughtful he was toward his victims. i wish he would've left them alone and let them live. they had families, children, mothers and fathers. what a bastard. what a selfish bastard. and what did they die for? nothing but his stupid worthless orgasm.