Are they taking notes in Spain?
As we offer our condolences and prayers for our British cousins today, it is both telling and heartening to see how Londoners are reacting to the worst attack on their city since World War II. Matt drudge links to this article in the Washington Post, which tells that they are reacting with that most laudable British trait–fortitude and defiance. Quotes from the article:
“As Brits, we’ll carry on _ it doesn’t scare us at all,” said 37-year-old tour guide Michael Cahill. “Look, loads of people are walking down the streets. It’s Great Britain _ not called ‘Great’ for nothing.”
“People are getting on with it,” said taxi driver Steve Green. “It’s marvelous that they’re showing their backbone.”
“It’s amazing how people have stuck together. I’ve seen total strangers hugging each other and people coming out into the street with free cups of tea,” [said Computer technician Matt Carter, 25.] We can’t let the terrorists defeat us. We’ve got to show them they will never win.”
No calls yet for British forces to pull out of Iraq, and I don’t expect to hear any serious talk of it. The spirit of Winston Churchill is alive in the U.K. The spirit of Neville Chamberlain has long ago moved in a southerly direction.
Update: The Sun Says: “In the words of Winston Churchill in 1941: Never give in. Never. Never. Never.” Spot-on.
22 Responses to “Are they taking notes in Spain?”
I thought this was a nice gesture on the part of our diplomats.
Of course…given that Spain immediately took the troops it pulled out of Iraq and pumped them into Afghanistan, and virtually every poll taken in Spain showed that the main reason for the electoral shift was the fact that the Spanish Government had instantly tried to blame ETA and played down evidence that it was Al Qaeda, and polls before the election had the race in a virtual dead heat or even had the popular party winning…it’s nice to know that it’s still ok to randomly bash countries without the real facts.
Ah, Balta beat me to the punch on Spain. (Balta, you sure seem to have reemerged from blogospheric hibernation — er, aestivation? — lately.)
I did want to also note this wonderful (if, um, colorful) British response, that Andrew Sullivan posted in his blog: http://tinyurl.com/7z667
I seriously do not understand this post.
The conservative government in Spain lost the election for several reasons. One they lied about the perpetrators of the blasts in the Madrid subway, which occured shortly before the parliamentary election. Two, the conservative support for the war in Iraq was widely disapproved of. And, most importantly, the liberal party had a viable candidate to oppose the conservatives.
That is in stark contrast to the UK. The bomb blasts in London occurred after the elections in the UK. Labour was returned to power, but with a significantly reduced margin. And the Tories just did not have a viable candidate to oppose Blair. Proving again, that you can’t beat somebody (Blair–although he’ll likely be stepping down in the next year or so, to be followed by the treasury minister) with a nobody. The Tories put up a nobody in the election. That’s why the Tories lost the election.
Look, the fact is that right after the Madrid bombing, the hue and cry in Spain was “this is our government’s fault for supporting the war in Iraq–we have to get out now!” Why did the government try to blame ETA? Because they knew the people would react that way if it was al-Qaeda. Compare that to the reaction quoted by Sully. Night and day. You can spin this all you want–the fact is that a large portion of Spain decided they’d be better off if they stayed out of the war on terror–exactly what al Qaeda surely hoped for.
Incidentally, I’d like to see a link for Balta’s claim that Spain shifted their troops from Iraq to Afghanistan. Even if they added the same number there that they pulled out of Iraq, however, I’m not all that impressed. Afghanistan is no longer the front line.
Eric,
Your blind loyalty to the Bush administration agenda is disturbing.
I bet Beth Holloway Twitty is ticked off about this. I saw Greta left Aruba and is now reporting from London.
Eric, spin it however you want. A large portion of Spaniards were against their cooperation in the war in Iraq from the beginning of their participation. The fact that the conservative government out-and-out lied about the source of the bombing in Madrid exacerbated their re-election problem. And the fact is that the bombing came shortly before the election there. And the liberal party had a viable candidate in Zapatero to oppose the conservatives. Those are facts.
Those facts are in stark contrast to the London situation. The bombings in London came after the parliamentary elections. And the Tories in the UK do not–and did not–have a viable candidate for prime minister. Get over it. John Major, the last Torie prime minister and successor to Maggie Thatcher, was a disaster. He ruined the Tories over there. As I said, you can’t beat somebody (Blair) with nobody, and the Tories had nobody to put up.
“Why did the government try to blame ETA? Because they knew the people would react that way if it was al-Qaeda. ”
Nooooooo. The ETA is the IRA of Spain, and a right-leaning Spanish anti-terror government would have many, many more reasons to point to domestic terrorism over al-Qaeda.
I’m beginning to believe that Eric doesn’t understand the dynamics of the parliamentary form of government. The dynamics are significantly different than the American form of government. I’ve lived in a country (Germany) that has a parliamentary form of government for significant parts of the past 20 years, and have noted the differences.
Paul, the problem with ETA is a bit more complicated than that. The problem with ETA is that they are a minority ethnic group that spans a boundary. They are Basques, some of whom live in Spain, and some of whom live in southwestern France. It’s something like the Kurds, who are in southwestern Turkey, northern Iraq, Syria and western Iran. The problem with ETA is that it is annoying. Even to the locals in the Basque region of Spain. They haven’t been able to conjure up an uprising in the Basque region of France. Nobody cares. They’re just a gnat. Why the previous Spanish government made reference to ETA as being the perpetrators of the Madrid bombings is beyond me. If they had been honest, they might still be in power–although I doubt it.
I’m well aware of ETA and the problems of el pais vasco and the smaller part of the Basque country in France, as well as the history of Madrid-directed anti-Basque (and Catalan, and other non-”Spanish” identities) activities, particularly under Franco (who had particular reason to hate the Basques).
“The problem with ETA is that it is annoying.”
The families of the various victims of ETA-sponosred terrorism would disagree.
I should also point out that the IRA, too, is a cross-border terror group acting on behalf of a cross-border ethnic group.
Raj, try reading what I’ve written before you start proclaiming what I do or don’t understand. I haven’t said a damn thing about elections. I’m talking about the public reactions in general following the Madrid bombings.
Your blind loyalty to the Bush administration agenda is disturbing.
I love this comment from JK. What on earth does this post have to do with the Bush administration?
Nooooooo. The ETA is the IRA of Spain, and a right-leaning Spanish anti-terror government would have many, many more reasons to point to domestic terrorism over al-Qaeda.
Granted. That doesn’t mean they didn’t anticipate that if it were al-Qaeda, that would add a great deal of momentum to the anti-war faction opposed to the current government. But it was likely a combination of reasons.
Eric, I have read what you have written. I have also made inferences from what you have written, based on my knowledge. It struck me as being a bit silly to liken the Spanish situation to the British situation, which is what appears to be what you were trying to do with your post. That was my point.
I have to ask you, if you were not trying to liken the situation in Spain to the situation in the UK, why did you even raise Spain in your post?
Paul, the people who are directly affected by ETA’s terrorist activity are of course directly affected. But in grossen und ganzen their political effect has been minimal. ETA has been about as effective as the Rote Armee Faktion (Baader-Meinhof gang) in West Germany from the 1970s, and the RAF was sponsored by the East Germans.
Yes, raj, I’m comparing the 7/7 attacks in London to the 3/11 attacks in Madrid. Both were major terror attacks, and the people of both nations reacted differently on a gut level. What does the parliamentary form of democracy have to do with that?
Eric…the CNN link from my original blog post is dead, but here’s the post I made at the time. I will grant you this…they did not add the same number to Afghanistan that they pulled out of Iraq, but just from memory I believe it was a decent chunk of them.
And Eric…2 points on Afghanistan. First…it is still most definately part of the front line. This spring has seen a renewed offensive by the Taliban, including attacks, suicide bombings, and so forth, to the point that Britain has been trying to figure out ways to put more troops into that nation to prevent “Civil War” (their words, not mine)
And secondly, it is simply wrong to say that “Iraq is now the central front in the war on terror” without acknowledging how it became the central front in the war on terror; George W. Bush decided to invade the place, and therefore gave rise to a terrorist breeding ground on the scale of the Soviet disaster in Afghanistan in the 80’s. Just because George W. Bush decided to create a huge number of new terrorists in Iraq doesn’t mean that the Spaniards have to accept that its tied together with the formerly independent bastards who hit us on 9/11.
“Balta, you sure seem to have reemerged from blogospheric hibernation — er, aestivation? — lately”
-personally my blogosphere activities lately seem to depend largely on my schedule…for example, yesterday I spent several hours sitting next to a phone waiting for an important call, so I had time available. On the other hand, 2 days ago I was working on a powerpoint presentation until the wee hours of the morning, so I don’t believe I did much commenting all day. Monday I’m on the SEM, so I doubt i’ll be commenting much that day, etc. This is why I just don’t think I can run my own personal, solo-blog…I can’t give a constant amount of time to it every day.
Balta, in response to your last three paragraphs to me…
1) OK
2) Yes, this spring has seen an offensive by the Taliban, but Spain shifted their troops in the spring of 2004, when Afghanistan looked mostly like a peacekeeping mission, save for the hunt for UBL.
3) I’m not going to get into *that* argument again…at least not on this thread.
I don’t understand the basic disrespect for the wishes of the people that are reflecting in negative comments on Spanish voters. If the people of a democratic state are overwhelmingly opposed to a war that their leader puts them in to it’s damn well their right to replace that leader with someone who more conforms to that view. If you disagree with their take on things go ahead, but respect the rights of the electorate to put those in office who represent their views.
What does the parliamentary form of democracy have to do with that?
Parliamentary forms of government ususally provide for votes of “no confidence” whereby the opposition can force a new election. The problem for the opposition Tories in the UK is that they have no viable candidate for prime minister, and they aren’t going to try to force a new election until they can come up with one. It’s as simple as that.
I’d compare the bombings in London with those in Madrid, too, but the only apparent similarity is that they were bombings of public transportation facilities. The contrasts between the two seem to be more striking, and I have described the contrasts. You seemed to liken the bombings in London to those in Madrid, and you seemed to be complaining about how the Spaniards responded in their situation, and that was what I was responding to.
It should be noted that there were rather significant bombings against British interests in Istanbul a while ago, so these attacks in London should not come as much of a surprise. Does that mean that I approve of them? Not by a long shot. Does it mean that the bomb blasts were not much of a surprise? Frankly, yes.