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	<title>Comments on: Most Obvious Violation of Free Exercise Rights Ever?</title>
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		<title>By: Wick Deer</title>
		<link>http://www.intheagora.com/archives/2005/05/most_obvious_violation_of_free_exercise_rights_ever/comment-page-2/#comment-8927</link>
		<dc:creator>Wick Deer</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 02 Jun 2005 01:33:55 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://intheagora.com/2005/05/most_obvious_violation_of_free_exercise_rights_ever.html#comment-8927</guid>
		<description>Couple of clarifications:
I just realized I was not responding to Loren&#039;s post.  My bad.
Also, I can&#039;t link to the decision.  The docket is online, but only accessable through subscription.  I don&#039;t practice in Marion County anymore, so I don&#039;t have a subscription.  In any case, I don&#039;t think the text of orders is available online.
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		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Couple of clarifications:<br />
I just realized I was not responding to Loren&#8217;s post.  My bad.<br />
Also, I can&#8217;t link to the decision.  The docket is online, but only accessable through subscription.  I don&#8217;t practice in Marion County anymore, so I don&#8217;t have a subscription.  In any case, I don&#8217;t think the text of orders is available online.</p>
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		<title>By: Wick Deer</title>
		<link>http://www.intheagora.com/archives/2005/05/most_obvious_violation_of_free_exercise_rights_ever/comment-page-2/#comment-8926</link>
		<dc:creator>Wick Deer</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 02 Jun 2005 01:27:07 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://intheagora.com/2005/05/most_obvious_violation_of_free_exercise_rights_ever.html#comment-8926</guid>
		<description>Hi Loren:
The judge did not issue awritten opinion.  There was only a one sentence order denying the Motion to Correct Error.
The commissioner&#039;s ruling being appealed contained a order, which was not supported by any findings of fact regarding potential harm to the child.
As I was informed (I was not present at the hearing, and there was no record.), the issue of wicca was not expected by the parties to be an issue in the divorce.  (Custody was the primary issue, but both parents were Wiccan, so there was no issue anticipated.)  The commissioner raised the question issue based upon her review of the DRCB report.
After the hearing, she issued the order.  There was no factual basis or legal citation to support the analysis.  (To be fair, detailed factual findings and legal citations are rarely present in divorce decrees.)
Wick Deer
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		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Hi Loren:<br />
The judge did not issue awritten opinion.  There was only a one sentence order denying the Motion to Correct Error.<br />
The commissioner&#8217;s ruling being appealed contained a order, which was not supported by any findings of fact regarding potential harm to the child.<br />
As I was informed (I was not present at the hearing, and there was no record.), the issue of wicca was not expected by the parties to be an issue in the divorce.  (Custody was the primary issue, but both parents were Wiccan, so there was no issue anticipated.)  The commissioner raised the question issue based upon her review of the DRCB report.<br />
After the hearing, she issued the order.  There was no factual basis or legal citation to support the analysis.  (To be fair, detailed factual findings and legal citations are rarely present in divorce decrees.)<br />
Wick Deer</p>
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		<title>By: Anonymous</title>
		<link>http://www.intheagora.com/archives/2005/05/most_obvious_violation_of_free_exercise_rights_ever/comment-page-2/#comment-8925</link>
		<dc:creator>Anonymous</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 02 Jun 2005 00:25:20 +0000</pubDate>
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		<description>Wick Deer, if you could, a link to his written opinion.  This is a well regarded, experienced judge. We have a lot of little miniature schnauzer&#039;s who think they know some law posting here.
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		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Wick Deer, if you could, a link to his written opinion.  This is a well regarded, experienced judge. We have a lot of little miniature schnauzer&#8217;s who think they know some law posting here.</p>
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		<title>By: Loren</title>
		<link>http://www.intheagora.com/archives/2005/05/most_obvious_violation_of_free_exercise_rights_ever/comment-page-2/#comment-8924</link>
		<dc:creator>Loren</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 30 May 2005 00:19:22 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://intheagora.com/2005/05/most_obvious_violation_of_free_exercise_rights_ever.html#comment-8924</guid>
		<description>&quot;One wonders where the judge got his law degree&quot;
To answer the rhetorical question, he got his JD from the same place Josh is getting his: Indiana University - Indianapolis School of Law.
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		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>&#8220;One wonders where the judge got his law degree&#8221;<br />
To answer the rhetorical question, he got his JD from the same place Josh is getting his: Indiana University &#8211; Indianapolis School of Law.</p>
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		<title>By: Nick Blesch</title>
		<link>http://www.intheagora.com/archives/2005/05/most_obvious_violation_of_free_exercise_rights_ever/comment-page-2/#comment-8923</link>
		<dc:creator>Nick Blesch</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 29 May 2005 17:29:49 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://intheagora.com/2005/05/most_obvious_violation_of_free_exercise_rights_ever.html#comment-8923</guid>
		<description>You both make points here.
It wasn&#039;t so long ago that Protestants would have considered Catholics non-Christian (and vice versa), and you can still find people who are convinced that &lt;a href=&quot;http://www.chick.com/reading/tracts/0071/0071_01.asp&quot; rel=&quot;nofollow&quot;&gt;Catholics are going to hell&lt;/a&gt;.  This isn&#039;t much the case nowadays, though.
And then, regardardless of anything else, a significant portion of Catholics and Protestants would agree that the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-Day Saints is quite un-Christian, regardless of their belief in Christ.
Who gets to decide?  Good question.
</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>You both make points here.<br />
It wasn&#8217;t so long ago that Protestants would have considered Catholics non-Christian (and vice versa), and you can still find people who are convinced that <a href="http://www.chick.com/reading/tracts/0071/0071_01.asp" rel="nofollow">Catholics are going to hell</a>.  This isn&#8217;t much the case nowadays, though.<br />
And then, regardardless of anything else, a significant portion of Catholics and Protestants would agree that the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-Day Saints is quite un-Christian, regardless of their belief in Christ.<br />
Who gets to decide?  Good question.</p>
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		<title>By: raj</title>
		<link>http://www.intheagora.com/archives/2005/05/most_obvious_violation_of_free_exercise_rights_ever/comment-page-2/#comment-8922</link>
		<dc:creator>raj</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 29 May 2005 06:08:12 +0000</pubDate>
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		<description>LotharBot at May 28, 2005 02:54 AM &#124;
&lt;i&gt;Raj, perhaps you should read more carefully. The point David has made perhaps 4 or 5 times so far is that when virtually every Christian would say &quot;group X is not Christian&quot;, that&#039;s significant.&lt;/i&gt;
Perhaps you should read more carefully.  What I said was that nobody owns the Christian (R) trademark.  Anyone can call himself a Christian.  &lt;i&gt;Anyone&lt;/i&gt;  The fact that other people who call themselves Christian do not wish to recognize the &quot;anyone&quot; as being a Christian is totally irrelevant.
I hate to tell you, but it is almost as though the term &quot;Christian&quot; has become virtually meaningless, other than as a marketing tool.  I&#039;ve expounded on the subject elsewhere.
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		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>LotharBot at May 28, 2005 02:54 AM |<br />
<i>Raj, perhaps you should read more carefully. The point David has made perhaps 4 or 5 times so far is that when virtually every Christian would say &#8220;group X is not Christian&#8221;, that&#8217;s significant.</i><br />
Perhaps you should read more carefully.  What I said was that nobody owns the Christian (R) trademark.  Anyone can call himself a Christian.  <i>Anyone</i>  The fact that other people who call themselves Christian do not wish to recognize the &#8220;anyone&#8221; as being a Christian is totally irrelevant.<br />
I hate to tell you, but it is almost as though the term &#8220;Christian&#8221; has become virtually meaningless, other than as a marketing tool.  I&#8217;ve expounded on the subject elsewhere.</p>
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		<title>By: Wick Deer</title>
		<link>http://www.intheagora.com/archives/2005/05/most_obvious_violation_of_free_exercise_rights_ever/comment-page-2/#comment-8921</link>
		<dc:creator>Wick Deer</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 29 May 2005 05:33:04 +0000</pubDate>
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		<description>What facts pay do you think are not in hand?
Let me know, and I will fill in the blanks if I can.
Wick Deer
</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>What facts pay do you think are not in hand?<br />
Let me know, and I will fill in the blanks if I can.<br />
Wick Deer</p>
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		<title>By: Anonymous</title>
		<link>http://www.intheagora.com/archives/2005/05/most_obvious_violation_of_free_exercise_rights_ever/comment-page-1/#comment-8920</link>
		<dc:creator>Anonymous</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 28 May 2005 22:37:44 +0000</pubDate>
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		<description>Lotta talk for not having the facts in hand. Of course, they will likely be in hand when we get another ruling. Until then,there are little to no grounds to smear Judge Bradford.
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		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Lotta talk for not having the facts in hand. Of course, they will likely be in hand when we get another ruling. Until then,there are little to no grounds to smear Judge Bradford.</p>
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		<title>By: Lili</title>
		<link>http://www.intheagora.com/archives/2005/05/most_obvious_violation_of_free_exercise_rights_ever/comment-page-1/#comment-8919</link>
		<dc:creator>Lili</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 28 May 2005 18:01:45 +0000</pubDate>
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		<description>Thank you, Ed, for saying what I wanted to say- only better.
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		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Thank you, Ed, for saying what I wanted to say- only better.</p>
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		<title>By: Ed Brayton</title>
		<link>http://www.intheagora.com/archives/2005/05/most_obvious_violation_of_free_exercise_rights_ever/comment-page-1/#comment-8918</link>
		<dc:creator>Ed Brayton</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 28 May 2005 16:45:34 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://intheagora.com/2005/05/most_obvious_violation_of_free_exercise_rights_ever.html#comment-8918</guid>
		<description>Lothar wrote:
&lt;p&gt;&lt;blockquote&gt;If you&#039;re claiming that Christians account for the vast majority of behavior X, but almost all of your examples of behavior X come from fringe groups most Christians reject, regardless of whether or not you can come up with a technical justification for calling those groups &quot;Christian&quot;, the statistic is misleading.&lt;/blockquote&gt;&lt;p&gt;While I certainly agree that you can&#039;t criticize most Christians for anti-semitism in this day and age, I think you&#039;re leaving out a lot of history that complicates the situation considerably. For 1800 years or so, anti-semitism was the norm in Christianity and not hating Jews would have put one on the &quot;fringe&quot; of the religion. You can find astonishing hatred of the Jews from the most prominent Christian theologians throughout 90% of the time the religion has existed, from the early church fathers to John Chrysostom to, most obviously, Martin Luther, and also to many of our own founding generation. One of the principle complaints of those who opposed the Constitution in America was that the ban on religious tests would allow even a Jew (!) to gain power in this country.
&lt;p&gt;Ironically, like many of the other negative aspects of Christianity through the ages such as acceptance of divine authority, it was contact with enlightenment humanism which resulted in softening and mostly eliminating these vile ideas, though this goes mostly unacknowledged from the Church. It&#039;s really an excellent example of the Hegelian dialectic at work. The Enlightenment was the antithesis of the Christian theocracies that had reigned in Europe for centuries, and in the mixing the synthesis produced was a far more humanistic (and humane) Christianity, for which we should all be thankful. One can only hope that the same thing happens to Islam, and soon. &lt;/p&gt;&lt;/p&gt;&lt;/p&gt;
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		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Lothar wrote:</p>
<p>
<blockquote>If you&#8217;re claiming that Christians account for the vast majority of behavior X, but almost all of your examples of behavior X come from fringe groups most Christians reject, regardless of whether or not you can come up with a technical justification for calling those groups &#8220;Christian&#8221;, the statistic is misleading.</p></blockquote>
<p>While I certainly agree that you can&#8217;t criticize most Christians for anti-semitism in this day and age, I think you&#8217;re leaving out a lot of history that complicates the situation considerably. For 1800 years or so, anti-semitism was the norm in Christianity and not hating Jews would have put one on the &#8220;fringe&#8221; of the religion. You can find astonishing hatred of the Jews from the most prominent Christian theologians throughout 90% of the time the religion has existed, from the early church fathers to John Chrysostom to, most obviously, Martin Luther, and also to many of our own founding generation. One of the principle complaints of those who opposed the Constitution in America was that the ban on religious tests would allow even a Jew (!) to gain power in this country.
</p>
<p>Ironically, like many of the other negative aspects of Christianity through the ages such as acceptance of divine authority, it was contact with enlightenment humanism which resulted in softening and mostly eliminating these vile ideas, though this goes mostly unacknowledged from the Church. It&#8217;s really an excellent example of the Hegelian dialectic at work. The Enlightenment was the antithesis of the Christian theocracies that had reigned in Europe for centuries, and in the mixing the synthesis produced was a far more humanistic (and humane) Christianity, for which we should all be thankful. One can only hope that the same thing happens to Islam, and soon. </p>
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